2016 HOF Debate: Ken Griffey Jr.
Jan 02, 2016
Written by
Committee Chairman
Last year, we did our first ever debate on Notinhalloffame.com where we tackled the Hall of Fame merit of twenty-four men who are on the Hall of Fame ballot, in what was in our opinion the most loaded ballot in our lifetime.
Since it was so much fun last time, we thought we would do it again!
One thing that has not changed is the number. We will again debate twenty-four men who are on the ballot.
What has changed are the ones debating. Last year I had the pleasure of having DDT, the curator of DDT’s Pop Flies blog and D.K. of the Phillies Archivist blog. This year, Spheniscus, who has participated in past Rock and Roll discussions, will be joining me.
Chairman: This should be a no-brainer, with stress on the word “should”. I have yet to read a publication, a blog, or a smoke signal that says that Ken Griffey Jr. is not a Hall of Famer. Yet, there is going to be a handful of voters who won’t check his name off and we know why don’t we?
It will be a few of those self-righteous pricks who will say “well, I don’t know who used PEDs or not from that era” and point to the enlarged head that he had when he played for Mr. Burns softball team as evidence that he used HGH.
It was Brain and Nerve tonic, goddamn it, and it was not on the banned substance list!
Bad Springfield jokes aside, Griffey is this year’s lock, and should be. My only question is what the second digit is on the vote, because the first one is a nine!
Spheniscus: That’s the thing though, there is no way to know who did and didn’t use at that time. Mike Piazza by practically any measure is the greatest hitting catcher of all time. He should have been a first ballot Hall of Famer. He’s now on his 4th time through? Why? Because he was a big guy and played in the steroid era and is therefore part of the whisper campaign.
Why don’t we think Griffey used? Because he was a phenom? Well, so was his teammate Alex Rodriguez, who was a user. Because he was skinny? Have you seen Ryan Franklin? He’d need to wear a dive belt to hit 150 pounds. He was a user. Because he’s a nice guy? Mike Cameron may be the nicest person ever in baseball. He was a user.
To be fair, I don’t believe that Griffey used. And obviously what my father would have called the Ivory Soap percentage of the voters don’t either. He will most likely end up with 95% plus of the vote. But if people take the stand that no one from the era gets in because they don’t know who used, the stand is stupid but it is at least consistent. I don’t hold it against them. Those guys aren’t the self-righteous pricks in my book. They are dumbasses, but not pricks.
Those who don’t vote for him because it is the first time he is eligible and not even Babe Ruth got 100% of the vote are the self-righteous pricks. Those people can just turn in their ballot privileges.
Although I do wonder if there are a percentage that won’t vote for Griffey knowing that he will skate in and that an extra vote for someone further down the ballot would help someone they think is a worthy candidate. If you truly believe that Edgar Martinez is a Hall of Famer, but he is 11th on your list, why not leave Griffey blank and vote for Martinez? That may also depress Griffey’s vote percentage while the people who are doing it are actually on the side of the angels.
Chairman: Griffey will go down in a long list of men who should have received 100 percent of the ballot because of the self-righteous pricks/dumbasses we both spoke of. Personally, I prefer the term “sanctimonious douchebag”, but maybe that is because how I have been viewing Hawkeye in M*A*S*H reruns last night in a drunken bender watching that show on a marathon.
While you are right that we don’t know whether Griffey Jr. juiced or not, and I am with you in that he probably didn’t, based mostly on his post 30 numbers as opposed to prior to. It was a natural decline that made sense, not some Dorian Gray/Benjamin Button statistical increase like some had.
Slight tangent here; looking back it is impossible to believe that the Mariners with Griffey, Martinez, A-Rod and Randy Johnson never made the World Series. Maybe even more surprising is that Jay Buhner was the most popular of all of them for a time. If he had hair, half the people outside of Seattle would not know his name, and he wouldn’t have been mentioned in a Seinfeld episode.
Actually that was a really big tangent.
Spheniscus: Funny, I presume that Sanctimonious Douchebag is the name of the band that always opens for Train on every one of their tours.
And the real reason that people remember Buhner is that it is the last good trade the Mariners ever made. Not that they did historically badly in their trades of Griffey or Johnson, but the Mariners have built a reputation as the team you talk to when you want to rebuild your franchise. The 2004 and 2007 World Series never happen if the Mariners don’t exchange Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek for Heathcliff Slocumb. Although to be fair they definitely got the better of us in 1996 when we traded an over-the-hill 34-year-old Jamie Moyer for the seven year younger Right Fielder of the future Darren Bragg. A man who would retire a FULL EIGHT YEARS BEFORE MOYER!
Anyway, where were we? Oh yes, Griffey. He’s getting in. Easily.
Chairman: Now you got me thinking…
“Sanctimonious Douchebag” would be a great name for either Coldplay or Nickelback. The fact that Coldplay is doing the Halftime show at this year’s Super Bowl has made me consider starting a crowdfund to get the Wayans Brothers to bring back their halftime counter on Fox in a “In Living Color” comeback.
Wait, Moyer retired? Doesn’t he seem like somebody who would be signed by the St. Paul Saints right now?
Anyways, Griffey has my pretend vote, and the real one of most of the voters. Since, there has never been (and never will be because there are too many writers who enjoy the fact that they have this power) a candidate entering at 100%, I will peg Junior’s tally at 97.3%.
Although that 2.7% need to have their voting privileges revoked immediately as well as their access to any computer so that they can continue their writing career.
Spheniscus: So with 550 voters, 97.3 means 15 people wouldn’t vote for Griffey. That actually seems too low to me. I’m going to presume there are 25 or 30 people who don’t for one reason or another. 25 means 95.5%. I’ll stick there.
Since it was so much fun last time, we thought we would do it again!
One thing that has not changed is the number. We will again debate twenty-four men who are on the ballot.
What has changed are the ones debating. Last year I had the pleasure of having DDT, the curator of DDT’s Pop Flies blog and D.K. of the Phillies Archivist blog. This year, Spheniscus, who has participated in past Rock and Roll discussions, will be joining me.
Chairman: This should be a no-brainer, with stress on the word “should”. I have yet to read a publication, a blog, or a smoke signal that says that Ken Griffey Jr. is not a Hall of Famer. Yet, there is going to be a handful of voters who won’t check his name off and we know why don’t we?
It will be a few of those self-righteous pricks who will say “well, I don’t know who used PEDs or not from that era” and point to the enlarged head that he had when he played for Mr. Burns softball team as evidence that he used HGH.
It was Brain and Nerve tonic, goddamn it, and it was not on the banned substance list!
Bad Springfield jokes aside, Griffey is this year’s lock, and should be. My only question is what the second digit is on the vote, because the first one is a nine!
Spheniscus: That’s the thing though, there is no way to know who did and didn’t use at that time. Mike Piazza by practically any measure is the greatest hitting catcher of all time. He should have been a first ballot Hall of Famer. He’s now on his 4th time through? Why? Because he was a big guy and played in the steroid era and is therefore part of the whisper campaign.
Why don’t we think Griffey used? Because he was a phenom? Well, so was his teammate Alex Rodriguez, who was a user. Because he was skinny? Have you seen Ryan Franklin? He’d need to wear a dive belt to hit 150 pounds. He was a user. Because he’s a nice guy? Mike Cameron may be the nicest person ever in baseball. He was a user.
To be fair, I don’t believe that Griffey used. And obviously what my father would have called the Ivory Soap percentage of the voters don’t either. He will most likely end up with 95% plus of the vote. But if people take the stand that no one from the era gets in because they don’t know who used, the stand is stupid but it is at least consistent. I don’t hold it against them. Those guys aren’t the self-righteous pricks in my book. They are dumbasses, but not pricks.
Those who don’t vote for him because it is the first time he is eligible and not even Babe Ruth got 100% of the vote are the self-righteous pricks. Those people can just turn in their ballot privileges.
Although I do wonder if there are a percentage that won’t vote for Griffey knowing that he will skate in and that an extra vote for someone further down the ballot would help someone they think is a worthy candidate. If you truly believe that Edgar Martinez is a Hall of Famer, but he is 11th on your list, why not leave Griffey blank and vote for Martinez? That may also depress Griffey’s vote percentage while the people who are doing it are actually on the side of the angels.
Chairman: Griffey will go down in a long list of men who should have received 100 percent of the ballot because of the self-righteous pricks/dumbasses we both spoke of. Personally, I prefer the term “sanctimonious douchebag”, but maybe that is because how I have been viewing Hawkeye in M*A*S*H reruns last night in a drunken bender watching that show on a marathon.
While you are right that we don’t know whether Griffey Jr. juiced or not, and I am with you in that he probably didn’t, based mostly on his post 30 numbers as opposed to prior to. It was a natural decline that made sense, not some Dorian Gray/Benjamin Button statistical increase like some had.
Slight tangent here; looking back it is impossible to believe that the Mariners with Griffey, Martinez, A-Rod and Randy Johnson never made the World Series. Maybe even more surprising is that Jay Buhner was the most popular of all of them for a time. If he had hair, half the people outside of Seattle would not know his name, and he wouldn’t have been mentioned in a Seinfeld episode.
Actually that was a really big tangent.
Spheniscus: Funny, I presume that Sanctimonious Douchebag is the name of the band that always opens for Train on every one of their tours.
And the real reason that people remember Buhner is that it is the last good trade the Mariners ever made. Not that they did historically badly in their trades of Griffey or Johnson, but the Mariners have built a reputation as the team you talk to when you want to rebuild your franchise. The 2004 and 2007 World Series never happen if the Mariners don’t exchange Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek for Heathcliff Slocumb. Although to be fair they definitely got the better of us in 1996 when we traded an over-the-hill 34-year-old Jamie Moyer for the seven year younger Right Fielder of the future Darren Bragg. A man who would retire a FULL EIGHT YEARS BEFORE MOYER!
Anyway, where were we? Oh yes, Griffey. He’s getting in. Easily.
Chairman: Now you got me thinking…
“Sanctimonious Douchebag” would be a great name for either Coldplay or Nickelback. The fact that Coldplay is doing the Halftime show at this year’s Super Bowl has made me consider starting a crowdfund to get the Wayans Brothers to bring back their halftime counter on Fox in a “In Living Color” comeback.
Wait, Moyer retired? Doesn’t he seem like somebody who would be signed by the St. Paul Saints right now?
Anyways, Griffey has my pretend vote, and the real one of most of the voters. Since, there has never been (and never will be because there are too many writers who enjoy the fact that they have this power) a candidate entering at 100%, I will peg Junior’s tally at 97.3%.
Although that 2.7% need to have their voting privileges revoked immediately as well as their access to any computer so that they can continue their writing career.
Spheniscus: So with 550 voters, 97.3 means 15 people wouldn’t vote for Griffey. That actually seems too low to me. I’m going to presume there are 25 or 30 people who don’t for one reason or another. 25 means 95.5%. I’ll stick there.
2016 HOF Debate: Barry Bonds
Jan 01, 2016
Written by
Committee Chairman
Last year, we did our first ever debate on Notinhalloffame.com where we tackled the Hall of Fame merit of twenty-four men who are on the Hall of Fame ballot, in what was in our opinion the most loaded ballot in our lifetime.
Since it was so much fun last time, we thought we would do it again!
One thing that has not changed is the number. We will again debate twenty-four men who are on the ballot.
What has changed are the ones debating. Last year I had the pleasure of having DDT, the curator of DDT’s Pop Flies blog and D.K. of the Phillies Archivist blog. This year, Spheniscus, who has participated in past Rock and Roll discussions, will be joining me.
Since it was so much fun last time, we thought we would do it again!
One thing that has not changed is the number. We will again debate twenty-four men who are on the ballot.
What has changed are the ones debating. Last year I had the pleasure of having DDT, the curator of DDT’s Pop Flies blog and D.K. of the Phillies Archivist blog. This year, Spheniscus, who has participated in past Rock and Roll discussions, will be joining me.
2016 HOF Debate: Roger Clemens
Jan 01, 2016
Written by
Committee Chairman
Last year, we did our first ever debate on Notinhalloffame.com where we tackled the Hall of Fame merit of twenty-four men who are on the Hall of Fame ballot, in what was in our opinion the most loaded ballot in our lifetime.
Since it was so much fun last time, we thought we would do it again!
One thing that has not changed is the number. We will again debate twenty-four men who are on the ballot.
Since it was so much fun last time, we thought we would do it again!
One thing that has not changed is the number. We will again debate twenty-four men who are on the ballot.
2016 HOF Debate: Troy Glaus
Jan 01, 2016
Written by
Committee Chairman
Last year, we did our first ever debate on Notinhalloffame.com where we tackled the Hall of Fame merit of twenty-four men who are on the Hall of Fame ballot, in what was in our opinion the most loaded ballot in our lifetime.
Since it was so much fun last time, we thought we would do it again!
One thing that has not changed is the number. We will again debate twenty-four men who are on the ballot.
What has changed are the ones debating. Last year I had the pleasure of having DDT, the curator of DDT’s Pop Flies blog and D.K. of the Phillies Archivist blog. This year, Spheniscus, who has participated in past Rock and Roll discussions, will be joining me.
Chairman: I remembered what you said about Garret Anderson, and I have a similar memory of Troy Glaus, whether he was playing for the Blue Jays or not. He is just one of those players, who whenever I saw him play live or on television always seemed to be on. He hit 320 Home Runs over his career and it feels like I have seen half of them. He is like my retro Anti-R.A. Dickey. Every time I am in a position where I can watch the Jays play, it is usually the knuckleballer and usually when he shits the bed.
But I digress (again).
That might be how I remember Glaus, and I am sure there are a lot of people in Southern California who think of Glaus and his 2002 World Series MVP (is that a lesser version of how I view Joe Carter?) but I wonder how many people only remembering Glaus for his strikeouts. He did that…a lot. He is one of the few who has more whiffs than hits and is there my counterpart who every time he flipped through the channels saw him swing and miss at strike three?
Here is my early prediction. Glaus is not just a one and done. He will receive exactly one vote on the ballot. There is someone on that Angels beat that will give him that for the World Series he helped them win.
Spheniscus: So Glaus is going to be the next Jim Deshaies, huh? We should probably register www.puttginthehall.com then. To be fair, he was a significantly better player than Deshaies and probably deserves more than one vote. But on a ballot with somewhere around 13 legitimate Hall of Famers (depending on how you feel about steroids) and only 10 players that each writer can vote for, I don’t think he even gets that.
He never finished higher than 30th in MVP voting, which happened once. He made four All Star Teams, won two Silver Sluggers and HAD MORE STRIKE OUTS THAN HITS FOR HIS CAREER (1377 vs. 1375). And his comparables include Danny Tartabull, Jeromy Burnitz, and Dean Palmer. Three guys who had respectable careers but are in nobody’s Hall. He’s not a Hall of Famer. He is a really good player who had a 13 year career and completely fell off a cliff when he hit the wrong side of 30. There is no shame in that. I also don’t think there will be any votes though.
Chairman: I can’t even run this site! Glaus could very well receive a goose egg, perhaps significant considering how many of his at bats amounted to nothing. Would that make him one of the best players to ever get skunked? He wouldn’t be the best as that goes to Jim Wynn, but that might be an article for another time.
I think it is safe to say that when we are talking more about what he didn’t do as opposed to what he did do, we don’t have much of a candidate do we?
Spheniscus: Agreed. Glaus was a very good player for a very good time. When you were playing his team and the game was on the line, you held your breath while he was at the plate. I just don’t think he’s holding his breath in early January. Getting two votes would be a coup.
Chairman: This is easy. I vote no, and since I need to do an official prediction, I think he will get a charity vote, maybe from somebody in Southern California.
I don’t think Glaus will hang by his phone that day either waiting for that call. The real question is will he be golfing or fishing that day?
Spheniscus: Is there a way to do both? Because that is the most exciting thing that will be happening to him that day. Clearly he doesn’t get my vote. And I suspect he’ll strike out one more time. No votes for Mr. Glaus.
Since it was so much fun last time, we thought we would do it again!
One thing that has not changed is the number. We will again debate twenty-four men who are on the ballot.
What has changed are the ones debating. Last year I had the pleasure of having DDT, the curator of DDT’s Pop Flies blog and D.K. of the Phillies Archivist blog. This year, Spheniscus, who has participated in past Rock and Roll discussions, will be joining me.
Chairman: I remembered what you said about Garret Anderson, and I have a similar memory of Troy Glaus, whether he was playing for the Blue Jays or not. He is just one of those players, who whenever I saw him play live or on television always seemed to be on. He hit 320 Home Runs over his career and it feels like I have seen half of them. He is like my retro Anti-R.A. Dickey. Every time I am in a position where I can watch the Jays play, it is usually the knuckleballer and usually when he shits the bed.
But I digress (again).
That might be how I remember Glaus, and I am sure there are a lot of people in Southern California who think of Glaus and his 2002 World Series MVP (is that a lesser version of how I view Joe Carter?) but I wonder how many people only remembering Glaus for his strikeouts. He did that…a lot. He is one of the few who has more whiffs than hits and is there my counterpart who every time he flipped through the channels saw him swing and miss at strike three?
Here is my early prediction. Glaus is not just a one and done. He will receive exactly one vote on the ballot. There is someone on that Angels beat that will give him that for the World Series he helped them win.
Spheniscus: So Glaus is going to be the next Jim Deshaies, huh? We should probably register www.puttginthehall.com then. To be fair, he was a significantly better player than Deshaies and probably deserves more than one vote. But on a ballot with somewhere around 13 legitimate Hall of Famers (depending on how you feel about steroids) and only 10 players that each writer can vote for, I don’t think he even gets that.
He never finished higher than 30th in MVP voting, which happened once. He made four All Star Teams, won two Silver Sluggers and HAD MORE STRIKE OUTS THAN HITS FOR HIS CAREER (1377 vs. 1375). And his comparables include Danny Tartabull, Jeromy Burnitz, and Dean Palmer. Three guys who had respectable careers but are in nobody’s Hall. He’s not a Hall of Famer. He is a really good player who had a 13 year career and completely fell off a cliff when he hit the wrong side of 30. There is no shame in that. I also don’t think there will be any votes though.
Chairman: I can’t even run this site! Glaus could very well receive a goose egg, perhaps significant considering how many of his at bats amounted to nothing. Would that make him one of the best players to ever get skunked? He wouldn’t be the best as that goes to Jim Wynn, but that might be an article for another time.
I think it is safe to say that when we are talking more about what he didn’t do as opposed to what he did do, we don’t have much of a candidate do we?
Spheniscus: Agreed. Glaus was a very good player for a very good time. When you were playing his team and the game was on the line, you held your breath while he was at the plate. I just don’t think he’s holding his breath in early January. Getting two votes would be a coup.
Chairman: This is easy. I vote no, and since I need to do an official prediction, I think he will get a charity vote, maybe from somebody in Southern California.
I don’t think Glaus will hang by his phone that day either waiting for that call. The real question is will he be golfing or fishing that day?
Spheniscus: Is there a way to do both? Because that is the most exciting thing that will be happening to him that day. Clearly he doesn’t get my vote. And I suspect he’ll strike out one more time. No votes for Mr. Glaus.
2016 HOF Debate: Nomar Garicaparra
Jan 01, 2016
Written by
Committee Chairman
Last year, we did our first ever debate on Notinhalloffame.com where we tackled the Hall of Fame merit of twenty-four men who are on the Hall of Fame ballot, in what was in our opinion the most loaded ballot in our lifetime.
Since it was so much fun last time, we thought we would do it again!
One thing that has not changed is the number. We will again debate twenty-four men who are on the ballot.
What has changed are the ones debating. Last year I had the pleasure of having DDT, the curator of DDT’s Pop Flies blog and D.K. of the Phillies Archivist blog. This year, Spheniscus, who has participated in past Rock and Roll discussions, will be joining me.
Chairman: Nomah! Last year I incorrectly predicted Nomar Garciaparra as a one and done candidate, though I wasn’t really off by much. The shortstop squeaked by with 5.5% of the vote and when that happened I was trying to figure out why as his accumulative metrics don’t put him there.
I forgot one thing. Just how much of a rock star Mr. Mia Hamm was.
This was the guy whose jersey Jimmy Fallon wore in those Saturday Night Live skits. This was the guy who women swooned for and did so without pissing off their men. This is the guy who lost the “r” at the end of his last name.
(Side Note): As much as I am a fan of his late night show, I will go down on record for saying that Fallon was the worst SNL performer ever. Thank you, Peter Griffin for decking him for his constant mugging for the camera.
Spheniscus, you are a member of the Fenway Faithful! Was Nomarmania running wild or was this just a perception of someone from the outside looking in?
Spheniscus: As a member of the Red Sox Nation I have to say I had a problem with Fallon for a very long time based on his quotes in promoting “Fever Pitch” in which he said he was a Mets, Yankees and Red Sox fan. Such a person cannot exist. Not even the biggest front-running poser fan could make a coherent argument that makes that fandom make sense.
But back to Nomahhhh. I love Nomar. Everyone I know loves Nomar. Without exaggerating, I have five friends who have named pets Nomar (three dogs, one cat, and a parrot). Up until 2000, he was on a complete Hall of Fame trajectory. There was the Jeter, A-Rod, Nomar argument and we smugly superior Red Sox fans would have taken Nomar over the other two (although we wanted Jeter’s rings).
In 1999 Orioles reliever Al Reyes hit Nomar in the wrist and it never really healed. He had surgery in the first part of 2001 to repair it, but was really never the same player after that. In 2002, John Henry bought the Red Sox and whatever the reason the relationship with the new ownership and Nomar was never the same. By 2004, he was a moody, unhappy former superstar who was incredibly unhappy with being in Boston.
The Sox traded him for Orlando Cabrera, who really wasn’t any better than Nomar had been when he played. But the notoriously prickly Cabrera was still a better fit in the clubhouse. The Sox immediately went 22-3, became the first team to come back from a 3-0 deficit and against the hated Yankees no less, and swept their way to their first World Series title in 86 years.
When Nomar was traded we were more sad than angry as if a couple that you cared about went through a divorce that was the best thing for them. And when the Sox won their rings we all hoped that Nomar would come back to collect his.
Honestly, I was pleasantly surprised that he made it past the first year on the ballot. I don’t hold out much hope for his long term prospects, however.
Chairman: You know for the curator of the Fictitious Athlete Hall of Fame, you would think I would remember the press junkets for Fever Pitch! (maybe because at that time I had yet to forgive Fallon for his SNL mugging)
Either way, yes, I don’t have to be in Massachusetts to know that no self-respecting BoSox fan is one of the Mets or the Yankees. Does that even exist there? It can’t be!
Still, here we are and Nomahhhhh, has made another year. I have to tell you, what you have told me has made me understand his star power a little more; yet at the same time, they couldn’t win with him. I am still trying to figure out his star power.
With Boston winning without him, is he still revered as a star there?
Another question… as a Red Sox fan, what is he missing for HOF consideration?
Spheniscus: Yes, Nomar is still revered here. He was too beloved while he was here and his falling out had everything to do with management and nothing with the fans. He still says how much he loved Boston. The fact we won the World Series immediately after he was traded also helps assuage any wounds that existed. So yes, we still love Nomahhhhhhhhhh!
As for what he is missing? A time machine to stop that pitch from hitting him in the wrist. Other than that? Longevity. More specifically a longer sustained peak. Because his first six years (not counting his injury shortened 2001 season) are definitely Hall of Fame worthy. He was between 6th and 9th in WAR each of those seasons. The last six were decidedly not so. Outside of 2006, his last All Star appearance, he was merely a very good, often injured player. And the two players to whom he was originally compared, Alex Rodriguez and Derek Jeter, have completely outstripped him in every category.
If there is a Half Hall of Fame somewhere (another idea for the site?) he would be a first ballot inductee. Along with Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, and Fernando Valenzuela.
Chairman: That sounds like a good idea. A half career All-Stars! I like that a lot!
At the end of the day, if I had a ballot he isn’t getting my vote. The Hall of Fame is supposed to be about what you did, not what could have been. It’s a harsh reality, but one that does separate from the very good to the elite.
He got 5.5% last year, which is where I will peg him this year. I predict he will hang on just a bit longer so that we can mispronounce his name next year.
Spheniscus: It’s okay. No one has ever really pronounced his name correctly. The reason we call him Nomahhh in Boston is can you imagine us trying to pronounce his last name with our accent? Gahhciarparhhaar (my approximation, not actually a word in the Welsh language. Well, I don’t think so anyway).
Nomar is not a Hall of Famer. He’ll get 6% this year. With 4 guys coming off last year and only two first ballot potentials joining this year, he’ll pick up a couple of votes. I give him two more years before dropping off.
Since it was so much fun last time, we thought we would do it again!
One thing that has not changed is the number. We will again debate twenty-four men who are on the ballot.
What has changed are the ones debating. Last year I had the pleasure of having DDT, the curator of DDT’s Pop Flies blog and D.K. of the Phillies Archivist blog. This year, Spheniscus, who has participated in past Rock and Roll discussions, will be joining me.
Chairman: Nomah! Last year I incorrectly predicted Nomar Garciaparra as a one and done candidate, though I wasn’t really off by much. The shortstop squeaked by with 5.5% of the vote and when that happened I was trying to figure out why as his accumulative metrics don’t put him there.
I forgot one thing. Just how much of a rock star Mr. Mia Hamm was.
This was the guy whose jersey Jimmy Fallon wore in those Saturday Night Live skits. This was the guy who women swooned for and did so without pissing off their men. This is the guy who lost the “r” at the end of his last name.
(Side Note): As much as I am a fan of his late night show, I will go down on record for saying that Fallon was the worst SNL performer ever. Thank you, Peter Griffin for decking him for his constant mugging for the camera.
Spheniscus, you are a member of the Fenway Faithful! Was Nomarmania running wild or was this just a perception of someone from the outside looking in?
Spheniscus: As a member of the Red Sox Nation I have to say I had a problem with Fallon for a very long time based on his quotes in promoting “Fever Pitch” in which he said he was a Mets, Yankees and Red Sox fan. Such a person cannot exist. Not even the biggest front-running poser fan could make a coherent argument that makes that fandom make sense.
But back to Nomahhhh. I love Nomar. Everyone I know loves Nomar. Without exaggerating, I have five friends who have named pets Nomar (three dogs, one cat, and a parrot). Up until 2000, he was on a complete Hall of Fame trajectory. There was the Jeter, A-Rod, Nomar argument and we smugly superior Red Sox fans would have taken Nomar over the other two (although we wanted Jeter’s rings).
In 1999 Orioles reliever Al Reyes hit Nomar in the wrist and it never really healed. He had surgery in the first part of 2001 to repair it, but was really never the same player after that. In 2002, John Henry bought the Red Sox and whatever the reason the relationship with the new ownership and Nomar was never the same. By 2004, he was a moody, unhappy former superstar who was incredibly unhappy with being in Boston.
The Sox traded him for Orlando Cabrera, who really wasn’t any better than Nomar had been when he played. But the notoriously prickly Cabrera was still a better fit in the clubhouse. The Sox immediately went 22-3, became the first team to come back from a 3-0 deficit and against the hated Yankees no less, and swept their way to their first World Series title in 86 years.
When Nomar was traded we were more sad than angry as if a couple that you cared about went through a divorce that was the best thing for them. And when the Sox won their rings we all hoped that Nomar would come back to collect his.
Honestly, I was pleasantly surprised that he made it past the first year on the ballot. I don’t hold out much hope for his long term prospects, however.
Chairman: You know for the curator of the Fictitious Athlete Hall of Fame, you would think I would remember the press junkets for Fever Pitch! (maybe because at that time I had yet to forgive Fallon for his SNL mugging)
Either way, yes, I don’t have to be in Massachusetts to know that no self-respecting BoSox fan is one of the Mets or the Yankees. Does that even exist there? It can’t be!
Still, here we are and Nomahhhhh, has made another year. I have to tell you, what you have told me has made me understand his star power a little more; yet at the same time, they couldn’t win with him. I am still trying to figure out his star power.
With Boston winning without him, is he still revered as a star there?
Another question… as a Red Sox fan, what is he missing for HOF consideration?
Spheniscus: Yes, Nomar is still revered here. He was too beloved while he was here and his falling out had everything to do with management and nothing with the fans. He still says how much he loved Boston. The fact we won the World Series immediately after he was traded also helps assuage any wounds that existed. So yes, we still love Nomahhhhhhhhhh!
As for what he is missing? A time machine to stop that pitch from hitting him in the wrist. Other than that? Longevity. More specifically a longer sustained peak. Because his first six years (not counting his injury shortened 2001 season) are definitely Hall of Fame worthy. He was between 6th and 9th in WAR each of those seasons. The last six were decidedly not so. Outside of 2006, his last All Star appearance, he was merely a very good, often injured player. And the two players to whom he was originally compared, Alex Rodriguez and Derek Jeter, have completely outstripped him in every category.
If there is a Half Hall of Fame somewhere (another idea for the site?) he would be a first ballot inductee. Along with Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, and Fernando Valenzuela.
Chairman: That sounds like a good idea. A half career All-Stars! I like that a lot!
At the end of the day, if I had a ballot he isn’t getting my vote. The Hall of Fame is supposed to be about what you did, not what could have been. It’s a harsh reality, but one that does separate from the very good to the elite.
He got 5.5% last year, which is where I will peg him this year. I predict he will hang on just a bit longer so that we can mispronounce his name next year.
Spheniscus: It’s okay. No one has ever really pronounced his name correctly. The reason we call him Nomahhh in Boston is can you imagine us trying to pronounce his last name with our accent? Gahhciarparhhaar (my approximation, not actually a word in the Welsh language. Well, I don’t think so anyway).
Nomar is not a Hall of Famer. He’ll get 6% this year. With 4 guys coming off last year and only two first ballot potentials joining this year, he’ll pick up a couple of votes. I give him two more years before dropping off.
2016 HOF Debate: Jim Edmonds
Jan 01, 2016
Written by
Committee Chairman
Last year, we did our first ever debate on Notinhalloffame.com where we tackled the Hall of Fame merit of twenty-four men who are on the Hall of Fame ballot, in what was in our opinion the most loaded ballot in our lifetime.
Since it was so much fun last time, we thought we would do it again!
One thing that has not changed is the number. We will again debate twenty-four men who are on the ballot.
What has changed are the ones debating. Last year I had the pleasure of having DDT, the curator of DDT’s Pop Flies blog and D.K. of the Phillies Archivist blog. This year, Spheniscus, who has participated in past Rock and Roll discussions, will be joining me.
Chairman: Spheniscus, I have to tell you that this is the one I am most looking forward to talking about, but it is not because I am going into this with any strong opinion. Actually, it is the exact opposite, as here is a guy that I really want to explore his career and haven’t really done so before.
I give you Jim Edmonds, a four time All Star a World Series Champion with the St. Louis Cardinals but somebody that I have always regarded as an above average player, but not once really thought of as Cooperstown material, but am I wrong?
I know there are a lot of people who groan about sabremetrics but like it or not, this is going to be the litmus test that a lot of decision makers for the Hall will go by and with Edmonds, his case gets stronger. With a bWAR of 60.3, there are still ten on the ballot that are higher, but this remains a stacked lot so that really shouldn’t be held against him.
Here is what should, that 60.3, is lower by than the average HOF at that position (70.4) as his JAWS (51.4 to the 57.2 average) is also lower.
If you argue with traditional numbers, he doesn’t hit any real “magic numbers”. He is shy of 400 Home Runs, did not make 2,000 Hits, though I can argue that his career Slugging Percentage, which is over .500, should be one of those magic numbers and let’s say it is traditional. I remember that stat on the back of my old baseball cards!
What I think will happen is that Edmonds will fall victim of this group as cases can be made for ten players over Edmonds. My God, could we see him as a “one and done?”
Spheniscus: We definitely could. He is comparable to Duke Snider who is in the Hall. The rest are folks who are probably in the Hall of the Very Good. Guys like Dale Murphy (who I would have voted for), Fred Lynn, Ellis Burks and Shawn Green. And interestingly Larry Walker, who I’m sure we’ll get to later.
Although honestly, the hitting numbers don’t matter to me with him. My mental image of him is superman flying through the air to catch something he had no business getting to in the first place. And that is why I actually think that Edmonds has a chance of being one and done and still making the Hall on what I call the Mazeroski exception. I’m not saying it is a great chance, but it exists for him in a way that it doesn’t for say Sammy Sosa were he to fall off the ballot this year.
Chairman: I like that term. “The Mazeroski Exception”. Permission to use that in the future? Before, I go on to Edmonds, can I state that I would used mine on Joe Carter? I won’t explain that one as I think you know why as a Jays fan I say that!
I think I am more optimistic than you are about Edmonds. I too remember his athletic feats on defense, but I think his metrics are good enough and I think that run in baseball mad St. Louis where he won a World Series really helps. He is one of those guys that I could see some of the voters, who might have him placed 12th on their ballot, push him up a couple spots so that he can get past the first year.
Whether it should happen or not, the human element plays a factor for a lot of the voters. Honestly, I don’t know that I would be any different.
Spheniscus: Permission granted. And I remember my first baseball game back in 1985 when Joe Carter hit a home run for the Indians that went farther than I could ever imagine a ball going. And he may have hit a more important home run at some point in his career. So you have my vote on Carter as well.
And perception is reality. If you asked folks on the site to pick between Jim Edmonds and Larry Walker for the Hall, my guess is that Edmonds wins that vote. Even though Walker is probably the better player. So we’ll see, but my guess is that we will be seeing Edmonds on the ballot next year. And the year after. And the year after. And the year after. He’ll end up somewhere in the low teens.
Chairman: I think there a lot of people who would vote for him, and possibly want to, but I go back to what I said earlier. It is not that hard to find ten people to put ahead of him.
With my pretend ballot, I am doing just that, and I would pass him over, and feel bad about doing it, but not for very long.
Still, I think he will just squeak by with a single digit, maybe in the six to seven range, so that we can reevaluate him at least one more year.
Spheniscus: I agree with you. He may take Nomar’s spot. Let’s say 7.5 to 8 percent. That doesn’t give him much of a cushion not to be a one and done. Which is too bad because he is one of the 15 on this list I would vote for. Just not in the first 10.
Since it was so much fun last time, we thought we would do it again!
One thing that has not changed is the number. We will again debate twenty-four men who are on the ballot.
What has changed are the ones debating. Last year I had the pleasure of having DDT, the curator of DDT’s Pop Flies blog and D.K. of the Phillies Archivist blog. This year, Spheniscus, who has participated in past Rock and Roll discussions, will be joining me.
Chairman: Spheniscus, I have to tell you that this is the one I am most looking forward to talking about, but it is not because I am going into this with any strong opinion. Actually, it is the exact opposite, as here is a guy that I really want to explore his career and haven’t really done so before.
I give you Jim Edmonds, a four time All Star a World Series Champion with the St. Louis Cardinals but somebody that I have always regarded as an above average player, but not once really thought of as Cooperstown material, but am I wrong?
I know there are a lot of people who groan about sabremetrics but like it or not, this is going to be the litmus test that a lot of decision makers for the Hall will go by and with Edmonds, his case gets stronger. With a bWAR of 60.3, there are still ten on the ballot that are higher, but this remains a stacked lot so that really shouldn’t be held against him.
Here is what should, that 60.3, is lower by than the average HOF at that position (70.4) as his JAWS (51.4 to the 57.2 average) is also lower.
If you argue with traditional numbers, he doesn’t hit any real “magic numbers”. He is shy of 400 Home Runs, did not make 2,000 Hits, though I can argue that his career Slugging Percentage, which is over .500, should be one of those magic numbers and let’s say it is traditional. I remember that stat on the back of my old baseball cards!
What I think will happen is that Edmonds will fall victim of this group as cases can be made for ten players over Edmonds. My God, could we see him as a “one and done?”
Spheniscus: We definitely could. He is comparable to Duke Snider who is in the Hall. The rest are folks who are probably in the Hall of the Very Good. Guys like Dale Murphy (who I would have voted for), Fred Lynn, Ellis Burks and Shawn Green. And interestingly Larry Walker, who I’m sure we’ll get to later.
Although honestly, the hitting numbers don’t matter to me with him. My mental image of him is superman flying through the air to catch something he had no business getting to in the first place. And that is why I actually think that Edmonds has a chance of being one and done and still making the Hall on what I call the Mazeroski exception. I’m not saying it is a great chance, but it exists for him in a way that it doesn’t for say Sammy Sosa were he to fall off the ballot this year.
Chairman: I like that term. “The Mazeroski Exception”. Permission to use that in the future? Before, I go on to Edmonds, can I state that I would used mine on Joe Carter? I won’t explain that one as I think you know why as a Jays fan I say that!
I think I am more optimistic than you are about Edmonds. I too remember his athletic feats on defense, but I think his metrics are good enough and I think that run in baseball mad St. Louis where he won a World Series really helps. He is one of those guys that I could see some of the voters, who might have him placed 12th on their ballot, push him up a couple spots so that he can get past the first year.
Whether it should happen or not, the human element plays a factor for a lot of the voters. Honestly, I don’t know that I would be any different.
Spheniscus: Permission granted. And I remember my first baseball game back in 1985 when Joe Carter hit a home run for the Indians that went farther than I could ever imagine a ball going. And he may have hit a more important home run at some point in his career. So you have my vote on Carter as well.
And perception is reality. If you asked folks on the site to pick between Jim Edmonds and Larry Walker for the Hall, my guess is that Edmonds wins that vote. Even though Walker is probably the better player. So we’ll see, but my guess is that we will be seeing Edmonds on the ballot next year. And the year after. And the year after. And the year after. He’ll end up somewhere in the low teens.
Chairman: I think there a lot of people who would vote for him, and possibly want to, but I go back to what I said earlier. It is not that hard to find ten people to put ahead of him.
With my pretend ballot, I am doing just that, and I would pass him over, and feel bad about doing it, but not for very long.
Still, I think he will just squeak by with a single digit, maybe in the six to seven range, so that we can reevaluate him at least one more year.
Spheniscus: I agree with you. He may take Nomar’s spot. Let’s say 7.5 to 8 percent. That doesn’t give him much of a cushion not to be a one and done. Which is too bad because he is one of the 15 on this list I would vote for. Just not in the first 10.
The United States woman’s hockey team has been good for years and when you have a netminder like Hilary Knight, you already have a leg up on the competition. The girl next door with the cereal box smile melts the hearts of this physician and many others we are sure. The only question the good doctor has is how will be able to score into her net?
The only problem that the good doctor has with Jaqueline Carvalho is that when she plays volleyball it is predominantly indoors, and not on the beach, where her clothing choices would be more limited! Perhaps we should more attention to the play, as Carvalho is quite the champion from Brazil!
The good doctor loves his Italian women, especially when they frequent the beach. Marta Menegatti is a star on the beach volleyball circuit, or maybe she isn’t. Honestly, I really don’t pay attention to wins and losses when women like Menegatti are spiking the ball. Speaking of spiking, guess what the good doctor is looking to spike!
The good doctor has to hand it to The Netherlands, as that relatively small European country constantly produces world class athletes, and hot ones at that. Is the hottest currently Field Hockey player, Ellen Hoog? I am inclined to think that it might be true!
