The Brian Giles Debate: 2015
Dec 23, 2014
Written by
Committee Chairman
This is the seventh of our series where we here at Notinhalloffame.com, do what else? Debate the merit of twenty-four men on the most loaded Baseball Hall of Fame ballot in our lifetime.
Joining me, the site's Committee Chairman, in this debate are D.K. of the site's Phillies Archivist blog and Darryl Tahirali of the site's DDT's Pop Flies blog. This looks to be a very important part of our site, and we hope you will enjoy reading this as much as we enjoyed writing it.
Chairman: Brian Giles is another one of those guys that when I think of the Baseball Hall of Fame I would ever equate with. Hell, I almost didn’t even include him I the 24 we were going to discuss. The first thing I thought of was here is a guy who was only an All Star twice (and with bad Pittsburgh teams) yet a quick look at his career stats reminded me that he was a lot better than I remembered. Sure he was saddled with some pretty mediocre teams, but a .400 career OBP with some decent power numbers tells me that he wasn’t that far. Hell, if he was half decent defensively he could have been this generations Bobby Grich, who was also “one and done” like I expect Giles to be.
Darryl: "Half-decent defensively" underlines why the comparison between Brian Giles and Bobby Grich won't work: Grich was an excellent middle infielder defensively who was a potent offensive force at a time when middle infielders didn't hit. Giles was a corner outfielder who was expected to show good offense, and he did—surprisingly good, as that .291/.400/.502 slash line shows—but, yes, he was a defensive liability in right field. Giles joins a host of very good outfielders we've seen come onto the ballot in the last few years—Moises Alou, Steve Finley, Luis Gonzalez, Shawn Green—but in terms of career numbers or peak dominance, Brian Giles looks more like Garret Anderson than any of those four. I do like that Giles walked 348 more times than he struck out, unusual in this strikeout-happy era, but that's hardly a blue chip to take to the Hall.
D.K.: Giles had a four year peak between 1999 and 2002 where he averaged 37 home runs per year, but that will be viewed as too brief a period of excellence or dominance. His career totals of 287 HR and 1,897 hits are indicative of a player who was pretty good, but not great - and not a Hall Of Famer.
Chairman: Basically, are saying that we have a decent player who certainly had a good career but debating his merits seems a little pointless, especially on this ballot. Are we agreed on that assessment?
D.K.: Agreed, Chairman. Giles was a well-above average hitter, hitting a robust
.291 for his career, but not much a defender. I had hoped during his career hat he would at least distinguish himself by reaching the 300 home runs and 2,000 hits milestones, but from a combination of aging and injuries he failed to do even that. Giles was a pretty good ballplayer, especially at the plate, but not a Hall Of Famer.
Darryl: Agreed. Giles was an excellent player, not an elite one. And I don't think he would merit much attention on any ballot in previous years or decades.
Chairman: With all due respect to Brian Giles, who had a solid career, this is my easiest no. In retrospect I let decent numbers cloud me into thinking he may have worth discussing.
D.K.: I really liked Giles and he did have those four years of 35+ home runs, but I can’t vote for him. - NO
Darryl: No.
The Nomar Garciaparra Debate: 2015
Dec 23, 2014
Written by
Committee Chairman
This is the sixth of our series where we here at Notinhalloffame.com, do what else? Debate the merit of twenty-four men on the most loaded Baseball Hall of Fame ballot in our lifetime.
Joining me, the site's Committee Chairman, in this debate are D.K. of the site's Phillies Archivist blog and Darryl Tahirali of the site's DDT's Pop Flies blog. This looks to be a very important part of our site, and we hope you will enjoy reading this as much as we enjoyed writing it.
Chairman: Ah…”Nomah”. I don’t know about the two of you but when I think of Garciaparra in relation to the Baseball Hall of Fame all I can think is that is this was 2003, the three of us would have said in unison (or so I think we would) that this guy was a future Baseball Hall of Famer, and probably on way to being a lock. It didn’t quite work out that way did it, and now when I think of Garciaparra, I think of Jimmy Fallon’s skit on Saturday Night Live, where he and Rachel Dratch played Boston fans. Not exactly the first thought you should come up when discussing a Hall of Famer is it?
Darryl: Nomar Garciaparra demonstrates just how amazingly difficult it is to become a Hall of Famer: A player must have both career longevity and an exceptional peak period—and not simply be a reliable compiler. Garciaparra roared out of the gate, and in 2003 we would have indeed declared him to be on the fast track for the Hall. His first half was Hall-worthy, but the drop-off from 2004 on killed his chances, and that is the sad fact about baseball immortality. A few players have made the Hall based on peak period alone, but those players—Sandy Koufax, Ralph Kiner—so dominated their periods that they overwhelmed the competition, and although Koufax was first-ballot, Kiner got in on the writers' vote by the skin of his teeth, literally—one vote over the minimum in his final year of eligibility. Garciaparra's early peak was not as dominant, although that may say more about the high talent compression in Garciaparra's time than his relative lack of absolute dominance—there are more good players now than in Koufax's or Kiner's time.
D.K.: Hit .313 lifetime, but he won’t get much support for the HOF. At one time he was considered on a par with Jeter and A-Rod among major league shortstops. Then a ton of injuries befell him and shortened his career. Unfortunately, the HOF doesn’t reward players on their potential or what they might have accomplished if they had stayed injury-free.
Chairman: So does this mean that mean that the three of us can agree that Nomar is one and done? Seriously, even with the most loaded ballot in recent memory would it matter? My question to the both of you is would Garciaparra make it to a second ballot if it were a less loaded list? Personally, I don’t think so, but I want to hear your thoughts on it.
Darryl: Yes, I do think Garciaparra would make it to subsequent ballots without so much competition, and he may in fact do just that this year anyway: Back-to-back batting titles and that .313 career batting average carry some weight. I'm reminded a little of Kirby Puckett here, who was voted into the Hall on his first ballot with only a 12-year career, although how much of that was sympathy for his glaucoma we may never know, and whether Puckett could have done that on this ballot is also uncertain, but I highly doubt it. So, although he won't get in, I'm not so sure that Nomar will be a one-and-done even on this ballot. On the other hand, I had Kenny Lofton pegged as a Hall of
Famer two years ago--and I still think he is--but he did not last past his first ballot.
D.K.: I think some writers will remember Nomar’s batting titles and his peak injury-free years and that will result in Nomar receiving 15 to 20 % of the vote. He’s not a “One and done”, but his position will be precarious and he may not make the full run of ten years on the ballot before dropping out with less than 5% some year.
Chairman: You are both more optimistic than I, as unless there are a lot more Boston sportswriters who have a say, I don’t think he gets off the maiden voyage. He wouldn’t on my ballot, as I vote no.
Darryl: No to No-mah.
D.K.: I vote No too, but I’m not crying for him. He married Mia Hamm. The same Mia Hamm. Nomar isn’t a HOFer but he does have Mia for consolation.
The Carlos Delgado Debate: 2015
Dec 21, 2014
Written by
Committee Chairman
This is the fifth of our series where we here at Notinhalloffame.com, do what else? Debate the merit of twenty-four men on the most loaded Baseball Hall of Fame ballot in our lifetime.
Joining me, the site's Committee Chairman, in this debate are D.K. of the site's Phillies Archivist blog and Darryl Tahirali of the site's DDT's Pop Flies blog. This looks to be a very important part of our site, and we hope you will enjoy reading this as much as we enjoyed writing it.
Chairman: This should be interesting. Gentlemen, the first thing I think of with Carlos Delgado, is that this is a guy is a top contender for the – “The Baseball Hall of Very Good.” I don’t think that is such a bad thing, I mean as Baseball fans, if we had a team that we cheered for of six of these guys, we would have a World Series contender every year, but my first instinct with Delgado’s first ballot is that with some pretty good career numbers on this loaded ballot he could be one of the best “one and done” players of all time.
Oooh, there is an article! Building a “one and done” Hall of Fame ballot team. Now we could come up with a championship squad couldn’t we?
Darryl: You could build several "one and done" Hall of Fame ballot teams, which only goes to show how rarefied the air is in the Hall. So, alas, poor Carlos Delgado: He is the poor man's Fred McGriff, and even though I go back and forth on McGriff depending on the day of the week, his is truly a borderline case—and Delgado falls below that borderline. Let's face it: Power-hitting first basemen are hardly a rarity in the Hall, and you have to be exceptional to be included. Delgado had an excellent career, but it was not elite, and on this ballot he won't survive his first year.
Frankly, I admired Delgado's personal beliefs including his political stances regarding his native Puerto Rico, and he opposed American military intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq—he refused to stand for the singing of "God Bless America" in protest, which offended many fans, but it is rare to find a professional athlete these days who takes a public stand as they are largely businessmen reluctant to jeopardize their market value with unfavorable public relations (hello, Derek Jeter!). However, I don't think that will help or hinder his chances appreciably.
D.K.: Delgado only made two all-star teams so he’s probably not Hall Of Fame material. His career numbers of better than a hit per game and 473 home runs and 1,512 RBI on the surface are impressive enough so that maybe he might receive some consideration from a future panel of Veterans Committee voters, but he won’t receive much attention from the writers. This is his first year of eligibility with the writers.
Chairman: Darryl, I loved what you said about Delgado executing his personal beliefs with his stance against the United States against the Middle East. It did not receive a lot of press, nor did he do that with that in mind. Seriously, that elevates him in my eyes, but not to the point where I would say that it would push him to the Hall on my ticket.
He was one of many really good sluggers of the era, and while good, not at the level where I would say, “let’s induct him”. I honestly think that if he had these stats in another era, he would hang around the ballot. Frankly, I don’t think he will remain past this ballot, and going back to his stance, the fact that it went largely unnoticed kind of speaks to me as to just how famous he really was.
Darryl: If Delgado had these stats in another era, yes, he would look like a Hall of Famer. But would he in fact post numbers comparable to that era instead? By that I mean this: Delgado posted pretty good numbers during the Steroids Era--but so did many, many players. I'm not alleging that Delgado used PEDs. Rather, my contention is that it was a high-offense period and not merely because of PEDs.
In my 2013 ballot assessment, I noted the rise in the number of home runs across MLB during this period, and this included players regarded as clean, such as Shawn Green, who hit 49 homers in a season twice, once while playing in Toronto's SkyDome/Rogers Centre, which is a hitter's park, and once while playing in Los Angeles's Dodger Stadium, a pitcher's park. If Green is clean, and he's hitting that many homers, what other factors are responsible? Smaller ballparks? Weaker pitching? Maple bats? Getting back to Delgado: If his peak was not 1995 to 2005 but instead was 1985 to 1995, a lower-offense period, would he still hit 30-35 homers and drive in 90-100 runs, or would his output be scaled to the lower-offense era and be closer to 20-25 homers and 80-90 RBI? It may be impossible to know for sure, but I suspect that Delgado, or any player, would be scaled to the conditions of his era. If Delgado hit 40-45 HR and drove in 100-110 runs during his actual era, he would be a likely Hall of Famer, but he did not.
As for his political stance, yes, it is admirable but it is marginal to his case. I'm blabbing on as I usually do so I'll cut to the chase: This is the Hall of Great Baseball Players and not the Hall of Great Human Beings. Ty Cobb was a stone racist to his dying breath, and I cannot respect him for that, but he was one of the greatest baseball players ever and I would protest his ever being denied enshrinement for it. Conversely, I cannot support a ballplayer's off-field exploits being a deciding factor in his Hall case (and I generally agree with Delgado's positions, by the way). In fact, my only "role model" among baseball players in that respect is Bob Gibson, who once said, in essence, why should I be a role model for your kid? You be a role model for your kid.
D.K.: Long story short: Delgado was selected to only two all-star games and while he was a dangerous home run threat there had to be some holes in his game to get so little all-star support. Writers are just not going to give much support to someone who has taken so few trips to the ASG.
Not counting pitchers, who could miss the all-star game simply because they pitched for their team on the last day of regular season competition before the break, it seems to me that 5 all-star games is the minimum and even with five all-star appearances, there had better be a reason why they didn’t make more ASGs: The main reason being that they were overshadowed by great contemporaries who played the same position. Then these players might make The Hall via the Vets. Committee some day ie: Phil Rizzuto and Richie Ashburn (5 all-star games each) - were outstanding players but it took a historical oversight committee to recognize their greatness because there were so many good players playing their position during their careers. However, I can’t see a campaign starting for Delgado who reached the Mid-Summer Classic only twice.
Delgado did one thing really well - hit home runs, 473 of them to be exact, but the line must be drawn somewhere and so far players with higher home run totals than Delgado like McGriff, Sheffield and the Steroid boys are not in the Hall either.
Chairman: For me this is easy, though I am going to go a brief tangent first. I never put huge stock in All Star game appearances. I wish baseball would take up a similar model to the NBA and NHL and award First and Second Team All Stars at the end of the season, which would be a true measure of how someone was perceived at their position in a particular year. How many times have we seem people dominate in the second half of the season and receive MVP consideration yet not make the All Star Game? Same as players having great first halves and stinking up the rest. No matter, really but no matter how you slice it Delgado just wasn’t an elite player at his position and my vote is no.
Darryl: No.
D.K.: His impressive 473 home runs and the fact that had he not been injured late in his career he would have reached 500 HR earned him some consideration and he makes my top 15,but not my top 10 - So it’s a NO from me.
The Roger Clemens Debate: 2015
Dec 21, 2014
Written by
Committee Chairman
This is the fourth of our series where we here at Notinhalloffame.com, do what else? Debate the merit of twenty-four men on the most loaded Baseball Hall of Fame ballot in our lifetime.
Joining me, the site's Committee Chairman, in this debate are D.K. of the site's Phillies Archivist blog and Darryl Tahirali of the site's DDT's Pop Flies blog. This looks to be a very important part of our site, and we hope you will enjoy reading this as much as we enjoyed writing it.
Chairman: It seems so fitting that as we do this alphabetically by last name, we have Roger Clemens after Bonds, (#2 to #1 on the current rank) and almost everything you can say about Bonds in terms of the current vote, you just look at Clemens and say “Ditto”. Like Barry, The Rocket is on his third vote after seeing his support fall roughly two points (37.6 to 35.4) and while I think that someday these guys will get some kind of forgiveness, I just don’t see it this year; especially when Clemens’ likeability factor is a number similar to Minnesota winter…in Celsius. I will add this; I could see his vote percentage dip below 35.
Darryl: Two votes are not enough to venture a trend, and the same goes for the minor fluctuations both Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens have experienced in those two vote totals. However, I agree that the PEDs taint will most likely keep players with material evidence of it out of the Hall of Fame for some time. Look at Rafael Palmeiro—he's already off the ballot. How many hitters have ever combined 3000 or more hits with 500 or more home runs, as he did? Only three: Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, and Eddie Murray, and all three were first-ballot inductees. Palmeiro's dropping off the ballot was the line in the sand—no matter how good your record was, if the voters think it was ill-gotten, you are not getting in. Which brings up the whole question of whether we're looking at a Hall of Morality and not a Hall of Baseball Talent, but I'll save that bullet for another time.
As far as likeability goes, my flippant answer is, who cares? The Hall is full of unsavory and/or unlikable characters—Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, and the great majority of any 19th-century player you can name—with the flip-side being that gee-whiz nice guys such as Gil Hodges and Dale Murphy have yet to see their likeability push their borderline cases across the threshold. That may change this year, though, as I strongly suspect that Hodges will be voted in by the Golden Era Committee.
D.K.: Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Mark McGwire.
Bonds: all-time career homer mark with 763 plus season record holder with 73. Had over 2,900 hits. Clemens third most strikeouts all-time and third most Post world War Two wins being Spahn and Maddux. McGwire broke Roger Maris’ home run in a season record that stood for nearly a half-century.
Despite these noteworthy accomplishments - It doesn’t matter what I think - it’s what the writers think. With heavily suspected PED use, whether proven or unproven some writers are never going to give any of these candidates their vote - EVER!
Chairman: First off…Darryl, are you really mentioning Gil Hodges here? In the infancy of this site, I thought I had to ban someone over that entry (and no worries, it was never going to be you) over his defiant stance of the former Dodger. Incidentally, I am sure like me you were shocked by his (3 or under) on the Golden Era Vote just announced.
(Chairman’s Tangent) Seriously Hall of Fame, why can’t we get exact vote totals like we do in the writer’s ballot? Was it 3, was it 2, was it 1 or a goose egg? If you are going to be transparent about votes, do it across the board! (end tangent)
Let me throw this personal memory from the mid-80’s when my cousin and I went to Exhibition Stadium in Toronto shortly after Clemens struck out 20 batters for the BoSox and having a conversation with a vendor about the Rocket and how this was a must watch game. That for me means something about the Hall of Fame, in that was a player a must watch. Whatever era we are talking about with Roger, he was always “must watch”. That should mean something right? At every stage of his career, this guy was must watch T.V.
Darryl: Regarding Gil Hodges, well, I mentioned him only in passing. But as for the overzealous fan--hey, I like colorful street people who tell me that I'm going to hell if I don't accept Christ as my personal savior, or that NASA faked the moon landings, as long as they don't follow me home or ask me for too much money. Frankly, though, and even though I thought Hodges would get voted in this time, I'm more shocked that Maury Wills got nine votes. And it is curious that vote totals below three are never given. The only thing I can think of is that revealing the exact number could show that one or more voters did not use all four of his votes, although why that should matter I don't know.
Maybe if a candidate did not get any votes, it would be embarrassing for him, or it could prejudice future votes. Who knows?
As far as Clemens goes, yes, he was definitely must-watch, and that is one of the marks of Hall of Fame players, particularly when their numbers back them up. In my write-up on Clemens for 2013, I did crunch the numbers from before he was suspected of using PEDs, and he did have a Hall of Fame case, albeit a borderline one. He was a must-watch guy from the start.
D.K.: Clemens shot himself in the foot with his suspected PED use. He had great numbers: (#3 in strikeouts all-time), 3rd in Post-World War Two wins behind Warren Spahn and Greg Maddux, 2nd behind Maddux in Wins in the last 50 years, but they are all for naught. The writers that covered him, bestowing unending accolades on him during his career and singing his praises now feel betrayed and cheated that for a good part of his career Clemens may have had some “chemical help”.
We’re not going to see a relenting on the part of the writers who withhold their votes for Clemens and other suspected ‘chemical cheaters’ any time soon.
Chairman: I think we all agree the Rocket isn’t getting into Cooperstown anytime soon, but I am casting my fictional ballot to him, right behind my support of Barry.
Darryl: Yes.
D.K.: Call me a grudge holder, but when I think of the big deals his teams made out of the milestones he reached, particularly the Yankees in 2003 when
Clemens reached both the 300 Wins and 4,000 strikeouts marks, if he was secretly getting chemical help all that time, it makes me feel somewhat I’ve been led down the Yellow Brick Road by “The man behind the curtain”. - (That was a 1939 or 1940 reference, but I you want a more recent one, you only have to go back to 1977 or 1978 when Johnny Rotten of The Sex Pistols said to the concert audience after a particularly mediocre live rendition of one of their songs “Did you ever get the feeling that you were being cheated?” - I vote NO.
The Barry Bonds Debate: 2015
Dec 20, 2014
Written by
Committee Chairman
This is the third of our series where we here at Notinhalloffame.com, do what else? Debate the merit of twenty-four men on the most loaded Baseball Hall of Fame ballot in our lifetime.
Joining me, the site's Committee Chairman, in this debate are D.K. of the site's Phillies Archivist blog and Darryl Tahirali of the site's DDT's Pop Flies blog. This looks to be a very important part of our site, and we hope you will enjoy reading this as much as we enjoyed writing it.
Chairman: Just a little while ago, Barry Bonds exclaimed that it was inevitable that he would get into Cooperstown. I have to wonder what he knows what I don’t.
Gentlemen, I have to say that despite that the site that I helped to create is all about Halls of Fame, I just don’t want to talk about this guy. This isn’t because I hate him, or disrespect him for taking PEDs (I won’t even insult anyone’s intelligence by saying allegedly) it is just that you can’t say his name without saying those three letters.
I will put it out there right here, right now. My take is if you are caught taking PEDs AFTER 2004, once Bud Selig and Baseball was pressured into creating a policy against it, then you are out of the Hall in my eyes automatically. Prior to that, you did what you were enabled to do. Regardless of my opinion, 34.7 % last year down from 36.2% in his first year tells me “inevitable” is still a long way away.
Darryl: I agree that up until the mid-2000s it was the Wild West in baseball with respect to PEDs although I include the Players' Association's foot-dragging as part of the blame. And we know that the "chicks dig the long ball" mentality, such as the 1998 home run chase, has been credited with "saving baseball" from the mass disaffection and disenchantment following the 1994 strike. What rankles me about this "PEDs punishment" is that focuses only on the individuals and ignores the institution that fostered the cheating.
Here are two examples: One, the same group that is snubbing Barry Bonds now, the Baseball Writers Association of America (BBWAA), voted him the National League's Most Valuable Player in four consecutive seasons, 2001 to 2004—right in the teeth of the Steroids Era. Two, what does it say about the institution of baseball that its all-time hits leader, Pete Rose, and its all-time home run leader, Bonds, are not in the Hall of Fame? At what point do we move from thinking that it's just a few "bad apples" cheating to thinking that the very institution may in fact foster the environment that condones that cheating?
D.K.: Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Mark McGwire
Bonds: all-time career homer mark with 763 plus season record holder with 73. Had over 2,900 hits. Clemens third most strikeouts all-time and third most Post world War Two wins being Spahn and Maddux. McGwire broke Roger Maris’ home run in a season record that stood for nearly a half-century.
Despite these noteworthy accomplishments - It doesn’t matter what I think - it’s what the writers think. With heavily suspected PED use, whether proven or unproven some writers are never going to give any of these candidates their vote - EVER!
Chairman: So am I to assume that we all think that Barry Bonds should get inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame? I think we all also assume that it won’t happen this year too. It seems like we are also in agreement that there is some serious hypocrisy going on. If we can agree on all of that, let’s just put out there what we think he will get, and make a friendly wager on the outcome.
As I am going first, I have the honor of setting the Price is Right opening bid and I will say 34.0%. A slight decrease, but one that puts him in healthy position to remain on the ballot. Gentlemen, I put it to you; what are we thinking here?
Darryl: This may be my shortest comment so far, but there really isn't much else to say about Bonds that hasn't been beaten to death already, so my "bid" is 38 percent.
D.K.: There’s not much to add that wouldn’t fall in the “beating a dead horse” category.
It’s amusing that Bonds now adds “psychic” to his resume and predicts his eventual enshrinement. I don’t see anyone supporting his election except maybe some die-hard Giants’ fans.
San Franciscans, don’t you have something better to do with your time than support a hopeless cause?
Chairman: Well, I think you both know where I am going with this. I am 1,000 percent yes and he is at the top of my ballot.
Darryl: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's seven Yeses, one for each damn time the writers voted Barry Bonds the NL's Most Valuable Player.
D.K.: For me it’s still too early for forgiveness for the PED users. Check with me in five years and I‘ll probably give Andy Pettitte my vote, because his involvement with performance enhancers seems to have been brief and slight.
Otherwise, I’ll proudly wear the label “Hard-liner” against the whole steroids
abusing crowd - even those like Bonds who many people say already had HOF numbers before he began messing around with “The Clear” and other performance improving chemicals. My vote is NO.
The Craig Biggio Debate: 2015
Dec 19, 2014
Written by
Committee Chairman
This is the second of our series where we here at Notinhalloffame.com, do what else? Debate the merit of twenty-four men on the most loaded Baseball Hall of Fame ballot in our lifetime.
Joining me, the site's Committee Chairman, in this debate are D.K. of the site's Phillies Archivst blog and Darryl Tahirali of the site's DDT's Pop Flies blog. This looks to be a very important part of our site, and we hope you will enjoy reading this as much as we enjoyed writing it.
Chairman: Let’s stay in Houston shall we? From one “Killer B” to another, we have Craig Biggio entering attempt number three on the ballot. Biggio was two votes shy last year and with Pedro, Johnson and Smoltz essentially replacing Maddux, Glavine and Thomas on the ballot, he feels like he is in the exact same position he was last year, though how he didn’t get inducted in 2013 without “first ballot locks” I can only speculate that some of the voters did not see Biggio as a “First Ballot Inductee”, which whether the Hall wants to see it that way or not, certainly has an unspoken hierarchy. Let’s say as some speculate Pedro, Randy and John (and I am not convinced that Smoltz is first ballot material) get in; none of us were alive when the Hall inducted four modern era candidates. Am I wrong to think that Biggio is forced to wait again, or could he take that “third spot” from Smoltz?
Darryl: It is puzzling as to why Craig Biggio has not been elected in his first two tries, although as I've noted before, 3000 hits is not a first-ballot lock. But if your speculation about Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, and John Smoltz is correct, and all three are elected this year (and I've written previously calling all three "no-brainer" Hall of Famers), then it would suggest that voters are rewarding only pitchers judged to be "clean" during the PEDs era and only hitters such as Frank Thomas, a "clean" player who made his opposition to PEDs crystal-clear from the start. Back to Biggio: Two data points are not enough to define a trend, but he did debut on the ballot in 2013 with 68.2 percent of the vote, and last year, as you note, he was two votes shy of 75 percent—and that was with the addition of Tom Glavine and Greg Maddux, both 300-plus-game winners, and Frank Thomas, who hit 521 home runs, to the ballot. Biggio has waited long enough, and I think voters know that.
D.K.: Biggio was extremely versatile. When he arrived in the majors from Seton Hall University (New Jersey) he was a catcher but would also excel in the majors as a second baseman and in the outfield. 20 years with one franchise - aside from Derek Jeter, how often are you going to see that these days - and there were a lot more perks staying with the Yankees for DJ than Biggio would enjoy as an Astro. 3,060 hits. I believe he’s second in home runs leading off games and second in being hit by pitches in MLB history. 290+ home runs for your lead off and at times #2 hitter; - Can’t beat that. He also ranks 5th all-time in doubles with over 650. Add the fact that he missed election by the smallest of margins (2 votes) last year and I think 2015 is going to be his year - and it’s kind of a disgrace that it has taken the voting writers three elections to give Biggio his due.
Chairman: So if I read this right, all three of us think that that Biggio will enter this year, or at the very least come close to the door. I know that I agree with both of you that he waited long enough and has more then enough of a Hall of Fame resume. Seriously, I think the team he played for hurts him. Let’s put what he did with the Yankees or the Red Sox, and with the added playoff games that would have come with it. If he was there, I think we would not be having this discussion; he would already be in. Maybe, I am being an elitist, but come one, there is an unspoken team bias involved here right? Either that or I am running anther one of my conspiracy theories, which may very well be a trend for me in this series.
Darryl: I would hate to think that there is a team bias, but I don't think it's far-fetched. Of course, I've been stating my own pet theory in previous pieces that with Bagwell presumed to have used steroids--with no evidence of it--and with Biggio having been his long-time teammate, that is a case of guilt by association stemming from guilt by supposition.
You're right that had Biggio played in Boston or New York, or even Detroit or Chicago, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. I've been looking at previous inductees to see if their teams and/or lack of postseason presence was a hindrance. Ernie Banks was first-ballot, and he never played a postseason game although he reached a Cooperstown milestone of 500 home runs. Luke Appling never played in the postseason with the White Sox, and he was voted in on his seventh try, keeping in mind that it took longer because during his time on the ballot in the late 1950s and early 1960s the writers voted only every other year. Robin Roberts played in only one postseason with the Phillies, in 1950 with the "Whiz Kids," and he was 14 games shy of 300 wins but got in on his fourth ballot; Roberts also lost a lot of games (245) and his 3.40 ERA was fairly high for his era, but he did make, as he should have.
You would hope that today's writers would see through both guilt by association and team bias, but maybe not.
D.K.: Although there is at least one case on record of a player who got over 74% of the vote, but less than 75 % (Jim Bunning 1988) and then saw his vote total decline the next year (the next three years actually until he was off the writers’ ballot) and had to wait until the Veterans Committee elected him several years later – that (vote decline) was clearly an aberration.
Usually if you come that close to election you’re elected the next year and that should be the case for Craig Biggio - deservedly so! If he was a big bopper he’d be in already. Because he was a superior all-around player and good contact hitter, with some power and not a genuine power hitter he gets unfairly left off some writers ballots in this home run-crazy age. Biggio’s fifth-best all-time, 650+ Doubles is not as impressive as 650+ home runs and never will be, but it shouldn’t be ignored by Hall of Fame voters either.
Chairman: Two Astros in on my ballot. I vote yes, with a belief that he may very well get in this year. Now Houston fans make him proud and show up in substantial numbers for his induction speech!
Darryl: It is frustrating that Craig Biggio did not get voted in his debut two years ago, and a travesty that he fell just short last year. I vote yes.
D.K.: There’s no question that Craig Biggio was the best holdover candidate in this election and I rate him as the second best candidate overall behind Randy Johnson. - A BIG YES vote from me.
The Jeff Bagwell Debate: 2015
Dec 18, 2014
Written by
Committee Chairman
This is the first of our series where we here at Notinhalloffame.com, do what else? Debate the merit of twenty-four men on the most loaded Baseball Hall of Fame ballot in our lifetime.
Joining me, the site's Committee Chairman, in this debate are D.K. of the site's Phillies Archivst blog and Darryl Tahirali of the site's DDT's Pop Flies blog. This looks to be a very important part of our site, and we hope you will enjoy reading this as much as we enjoyed writing it.
Chairman: Gentlemen, we start off with Jeff Bagwell, who is on the ballot for the 5th time, and was actually #1C (the ineligible Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson are 1A and 1B) when we started this website, and though he dropped #6 this year, that is only a testament to the great players who have become eligible since. The Baseball Writers gave him only 41.7% in 2011, made it to 59% in 2013, but so much talent on the ballot last year cost him five points and he is back down to 54.3%. On first glance, I see a guy who could drop or gain five points, but I don’t see much of a change this year.
Darryl: Which only goes to show that a) Jeff Bagwell was underappreciated during his career—he made only four All-Star squads—and b) the performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs) whispering campaign against him has taken its toll. I've been touting Bagwell as a Hall of Famer since I started writing for this site three years ago, and the numbers bear this out. Jay Jaffe's JAWS system ranks him as the sixth-best first baseman ever—ahead of Frank Thomas, who sailed into the Hall last year on his first ballot, but who lacks Bagwell's dimension. Bagwell was a better defender, and he was as close to a five-tool first baseman as we're likely to see. Bagwell is the only first baseman in the 30 home run-30 stolen base club—he did it twice—the only first baseman to hit at least 400 homers and swipe at least 200 bags, and the only first baseman since World War Two to steal at least 200 bases. With respect to PEDs, it's put-up-or-shut-up time: If there is no evidence that he used them—and his decline phase is consistent with a clean player—there is no reason why voters would not check his box except for prejudice and superstition. He should have been first-ballot.
D.K.: Jeff Bagwell would have reached 500 home runs if back injuries hadn’t shortened his career (he finished with 449 HR). He’d driven in 1510 runs by age 36 and played sparingly after that due to injuries. He had a number of .300 seasons and his lifetime batting average is just under .300. He deserves to be in the HOF, but with so many good candidates, among the pitchers and his old teammate Craig Biggio, Bagwell may have to wait another year. Then again sometimes there is a “coattails effect’ where if writers vote for one of a pair of longtime teammates they automatically vote for the other. We’ll see if this happens January 6.
Chairman: So it sounds like we are all in agreement that Bagwell deserves to be inducted. Part of me, and this is coming from someone who has had limited exposure at best to the Houston Astros over…well, my entire life, though here I am thinking how cool it would be for the fans of the Astros to see both Biggio and Bagwell enter the same year. I mean, if I was a fan of the Astros, I would forego seeing Bagwell and Biggio pushed back a year to make it a Houston spectacle. Seriously, what else have they had in the last forty years to cheer for?
I think that ties in with D.K.’s coattail argument and Darryl’s point of “putting up or shutting up”. Saying that, is he getting in this year? My Spidey Sense is tingling and telling me that he is not, though he will get in at some point on the writer’s ballot.
Darryl: Although I think that Biggio is going to get the necessary 75 percent of the vote this year, I do not think Bagwell will get enough votes.
Not to be flippant or sniggering here, but with respect to the voters' perceptions, and if you think about it in terms of trying to seduce a woman, Bagwell may have already passed into the "friend zone": He did not impress enough voters in his first four tries, and now that window may have closed as "hotter" candidates come onto the ballot and divert attention away from him. Which is a damned shame because Bagwell is definitely getting screwed from both ends and doesn't even have a kiss to show for it.
D.K.: There was no “coattails effect” last year. In fact, just the opposite occurred as Biggio’s vote total increased by 6 or 7 per cent while Bagwell’s percentage took a nosedive.
Bagwell is going to have to get elected on his own merits some time in the future because I’m pretty sure Biggio, with his close call last year is close to an “automatic” this year and whether Bagwell increases his vote total or not in January, he won’t raise it to the required 75%, at least not in 2015.
Chairman: Now it’s time to use our fictional votes, and based on our debates so far, it seems like we are all going to use our allotted ten; the maximum that the Baseball Writers can use.
I have would have voted for Bagwell every year since he has been on the ballot, and as you have deduced his name is etched here. I vote yes.
Darryl: For this final round, I will keep my speechifying to a minimum. I have shilled for Jeff Bagwell from my very first article for this site, and I sure as hell ain't gonna stop now. I vote yes.
D.K.: Bagwell rates in the middle of the pack of the 10 allotted votes each of us has (5th on my list to be exact). - I vote yes.
Golden Era Candidates Part 5: Round up
Dec 05, 2014
Written by
D. K. Orlandini
Golden Era Part 5: Round Up
With the Golden Era Veterans committee Hall Of Fame election just a few days away here's some details on a few candidates that I haven't covered previously plus who I'd like to see get elected - and when. (Just a reminder to readers: While not elected, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso, Gil Hodges and Tony Oliva received the most votes in the last Golden Era election in December 2011. Luis
Tiant and Ken Boyer are also returnees from that election, but their exact vote totals were never revealed and were listed by the Hall Of Fame as receiving 3 votes or less out of 16. Players Dick Allen, Maury Wills, and Billy Pierce as well as executive Bob Howsam were not on the Ballot three years ago.)
Jim Kaat:
While most HOF voters don't give any special weight to career longevity as a factor that may help a candidate get elected, they may have to make an exception in Kaat's case. The 25-year major league veteran (1959-1983) was a three-time 20 game winner and with 283 career wins, didn't miss the coveted 300 wins plateau by much. He anchored the Minnesota Twins rotation (along with some help from curveballer, Camilo Pascual and others, for a team that contended for the pennant throughout the 1960s, and went to the 1965 World Series. Kaat won 18 games that year and 25 the next, his peak years with the Twins. He won 20 twice with the Chicago White Sox at ages 35 and 36 remaining a starter until his late 30s. Then he extended his career another five years by working out of the bullpen with the Yankees and especially the Cardinals, where he won his only World Series ring in 1982.
While doing all this he set new standards for fielding the pitching position, winning 16 Gold Gloves. Once in 1980 a rash of injuries in the Cardinals starting pitching rotation temporarily forced Kaat back into a starter's role. The 41 year old responded by pitching four complete games and one shutout.
In retirement Kaat was a Yankees broadcaster for a few years, but gained greater prominence telecasting games nationally for ESPN and MLB network. He's highly respected, popular, and his continued presence on national broadcasts increases his visibility and can only help his HOF chances.
Tony Oliva:
Oliva burst upon the major league scene with an impact that few players in baseball history can match. He took the American league batting titles in 1964 and 1965, his first two complete seasons in the majors and added a third batting title in 1971. With his high average hitting, speed and extra base hit power Oliva was an extremely exciting player in his early years. Once in a nationally broadcast Saturday Game Of The week when he hit one in the gap and then ran through a stop sign to stretch a triple into a round-tripper he got long time broadcaster Dizzy Dean so worked up that he fumbled the call with Dean declaring "He slides, and Oliva is safe at the plate for an inside the run home park." Oliva was a solid .300 hitter, but hand and wrist injuries limited him to just over 1,900 base hits and diminished his HOF chances from a certainty to just a maybe.
Bob Howsam:
As a Cardinals executive Howsam experienced both sides of a situation that GMs are subject to. He lucked into a situation in 1964 where he was Bing Devine's mid-season replacement at GM. That team then got red hot and went on to win that year's World Series. He was the beneficiary of good timing (right time, right place).
Conversely, Howsam helped sign, trade for and develop players who would be cornerstones on the 1967 and 1968 NL pennant winners, although Howsam wasn't around to get the credit. After the 1966 season he left St. Louis to take the Cincinnati Reds' GM job.
You can't dispute that during his 12 year tenure he at Cincy built a wonderful team, "The Big Red Machine" won four NL pennants in seven years and won consecutive World Series in 1975 and 1976. I won't even offer a prediction in Howsam's case, because it is so difficult to predict the HOF chances of non-players, except for managers.
One thing I have noticed about executives on Veterans Committee Hall Of Fame ballots is that most of them are "One and done" one way or the other. If Howsam doesn't get elected this year it may be his final chance or at least his last chance for election in decades.
Dick Allen:
My Phillies loyalty aside, it's going to be difficult to elect someone who many people thought had attitude problems and never reached his full potential. I think that because he wasn't even on the ballot three years ago, the best he and his supporters can hope for is that he gets a decent vote total that will allow him to remain on the ballot in 2017 and then perhaps his candidacy will build some steam towards eventual election.
Gil Hodges:
See my separate story where I examine Hodges' case in detail. I think he's a deserving candidate. One tidbit that I forgot to include in Hodges story was that with 370 home runs, Hodges ranked 10th in career home runs in baseball history at the time he retired in 1963. He played at a time where home runs were more difficult to come by than today. In Hodges day the average park was much bigger than today's parks and some were enormous by today's standards. His 370 home runs was a big deal in Hodges' time.
Minnie Minoso:
Much underrated, but statistical analysis proves that he was very close to the most complete hitter in 1950s American League play. You might even say he was the best, aside from some superhuman feats accomplished by Mickey Mantle. His career's debut in the majors was delayed by the racial barrier and I'd really like to have seen what he could have done and what superior career numbers he would have posted if there was no Jim Crowism in the 1940s and he could have reached the majors at age 20. Minoso also was no slouch with the glove, winning three late career Gold Gloves for outfielding excellence in three of the first four years after the award was given. He was an all-star at every level: in Cuba, the Negro Leagues the Major Leagues and even in his 40s in Mexico.
His greatest contribution was opening the door for future generations of Latinos of Color. Hopefully Hall of Fame voters this year will elect him recognizing him at last as a racial and ethnic trailblazer...as well as being one Hell of a ballplayer.
Luis Tiant:
As discussed in a previous column (Bob Howsam photo and lead) Tiant's final career numbers were very similar to those of Jim 'Catfish' Hunter. While Hunter won 20 games five times, Tiant did it four times. Their career winning percentages and earned run averages were within a handful of points of each other. Hunter was voted into Cooperstown in just his third year of eligibility while Tiant, 74, used up all 15 years of eligibility on the writers' ballots and a few ballots on the Veterans Committee without gaining election. Bill James in a book published two decades ago suggested that Hunter, with his North Carolina, "Good Old Boy" personality was a good interview, who dished out some memorable quotes Southern Country Boy Style.
This may have made a favorable impression with the writers and helped Hunter's quest for the Hall a few years down the road. Meanwhile, Tiant who didn't come from Cuba to the US until age 20, when he started his career in the minors, always struggled with communicating in English. It's not the whole answer, but you have to factor this in to their dissimilar HOF fates. With otherwise similar records, you can't totally disregard James' theory. Tiant had one of the lowest vote totals in 2011 of any candidate who was retained on the 2014 ballot. If he is to be elected eventually then it's imperative that he make a stronger showing this year.
Ken Boyer:
With barely enough votes in 2011 to be retained on the ballot this year Boyer is in the same boat as Tiant. He needs an improved showing this month just to stay on the ballot three years from now. Twenty years ago Bill James rated Boyer and Joe Torre as the best third basemen who were not in the Hall Of Fame. Torre was elected this year as a manger and that leaves Boyer. Will he gain election this year or in the near future or will he continue to fall just short of the dividing line?
Boyer was a seven-time all-star (six years in succession from 1959 to 1964). He was the 1964 National League's MVP and its RBI leader. He averaged 24 home runs per year for his first ten years in the majors, actually hitting 24 home runs four years in a row (now that's consistent) with a career high of 32 HR in 1960. He was also the National League's best fielding third baseman for a decade and second best 3B in the majors, behind only the incomparable Brooks Robinson.
Boyer won numerous Gold Gloves. His debut in the majors was delayed until 1955, at age 24 due to his call up to military service during the Korean War. Boyer had almost made it to the top of the Cardinals farm system when the military beckoned. He missed the 1952 and 1953 seasons to the service, needed another year to reorient himself in the high minors and finally made his debut in the 1955 season opener. He was a consistent performer for the Cardinals and Mets at the plate for a dozen years through about 1966, but then declined sharply.
Overall he had over 2,100 hits in just over 2,000 MLB games. He hit over 280 home runs and hit nearly .290 for his career. Maybe Boyer was too consistent on an everyday basis for his own good and might have attracted more attention if he'd played with a bit more flair. To this point he hasn't captured the attention, imagination of votes of the Hall Of Fame electorate either. He may continue to fall just short of the mark.
A Note on Veterans Committee voting procedures:
As silly as it may seem that an 87-year-old Billy Pierce or an 82 year-old Maury Wills might have to wait another three years for their HOF candidacy to build some momentum, nevertheless It's True. Neither Pierce or Wills was on the Golden Era ballot three years ago nor was 72-year-old Dick Allen. For HOF voters, it's simply a matter of "out of sight, out of mind". The odds of going from off the ballot to being elected next time out are formidable, if not impossible.
These three however could secure decent totals so that they are almost automatically nominated three years from now and from there candidacy could snowball towards eventual election.
Maury Wills:
This Los Angeles Dodgers and later Pittsburgh Pirates shortstop re-invented the running game along with some help from American leaguer, Luis Aparicio. In the power era of Post-World War Two Major Leagues Baseball the running game had been so deemphasized in favor of "swinging from the heels" power game that nabbing 25 to 30 steals was often enough to lead the league in SB.
When Aparicio reached the majors in 1956 those totals began to pick up. By 1960 he was reaching over 50 steals year in and year out. Wills, however took that trend much, much further. He had a break out season of 104 steals in 1962 and followed with a 94 stolen base season in 1965 - unheard of totals in the modern era. With 535 steals logged from 1960 to 1969 Wills became the first player to have 500 steals in a decade since the "Dead Ball Era". He had a long apprenticeship in the minors, not debuting in the majors in 1959 with the Dodgers until he was almost 27.
Wills was an old-time leadoff man that relied on contact hitting and speed. He averaged only 1.5 home runs per season in a 14 year career. Wills had to focus on things he could do well: fielding the shortstop position as well as he could, getting bloop hits, getting infield hits, perfecting his bunting skills always looking to take the extra base and of course - base stealing. In the end he was truly a revolutionary player, who made a great impact on how the game has been played from his day to the present. A final candidate for the first time in a number of years he may not be able to gain election this year, but his time may be coming soon!
Billy Pierce:
Like Wills, Pierce is a finalist for the first time under the Golden Era election set-up. While he might seem like a borderline guy, I wouldn't rule him out for election particularly if you apply some of the newer statistics to analyze his performance. He won 186 games in 13 years (1949-1961) with the Chicago White Sox and won 211 games overall. He missed he 2,000 strikeouts plateau by a single strikeout and was held in extremely high esteem by his contemporaries, making seven American league all-star teams and he was bestowed with the honor of being the A.L.'s starting pitcher three times.
Now with a lifetime record of 211-169, on the surface 42 games over .500 may not seem like the record of a Hall Of Fame-type superior pitcher. You have to understand, however, that the White Sox were one of the poorest hitting, good teams that you could find. You might say they were offensively challenged.
Throughout Pierce's long stay in Chicago, his White Sox teams always had some serious holes in their lineup. Once you got past Nellie Fox, Minnie Minoso, and over the second half of Pierce's time with the Pale Hose, Luis Aparicio, White Sox managers Paul Richards and Al Lopez struggled to piece together the rest of the lineup. From time to time the White sox had other pluses in their lineup such as Gus Zernial, Eddie Robinson and Chico Carrasquel in the early '50s, Dave Philley in the mid-50s and Al Smith and power hitting, but low average hitting catcher, Sherm Lollar at the end of the '50s and into the early '60s.
That still left gaps in the lineup. A couple of outfield positions and the third base position were never properly filled by some one who could make a major contribution at the plate .So Pierce won nearly 200 games with White Sox teams that gave him mediocre to poor run support. The White Sox somehow won the 1959 American League pennant and they were a consistent second or third place team for a decade. Without Pierce working his magic every fourth day, however, they would have been an under .500, second division team annually. Pierce was dealt to the San Francisco Giants before the 1962 season and it was there that the little lefty (5'10, 160 lbs.) proved that he wasn't done and that his career would have a heroic second act. Pierce notched his 200th career win that year and went 16-6, while his Giants came storming back from a large deficit in the standings to catch the Los Angeles Dodgers on the last day of the season. The resulting tie forced a Best of 3 game playoff series. With the Giants' season on the line Pierce pitched a three-hit shutout in Game One of the playoffs defeating Sandy Koufax. After the Dodgers won the next game to even the series the Giants held a 6-4 lead after eight innings of Game Three. Manager Al Dark called on the one man he knew the Dodgers had trouble facing to nail down the victory in the ninth, Pierce. He retired all three hitters he faced to get the save and the Giants took home the pennant, Quite a clutch performance, but one that is often forgotten today. Pierce managed to have two 20-win seasons and he won at least 14 games ten times with the usually light-hitting White Sox. Had Pierce been with a team that afforded him better run support (say the Yankees and can you imagine the fits the Yanks would have given opponents throwing top of the line lefties Ford and Pierce at them in the same series.
Pierce's Hall Of Fame-worthiness might have been much more of a certainty. He'll have to have a fair showing this year and then perhaps his support for Hall of Fame election will pick up steam next time around. Pierce's candidacy may grow on voters over the next few years.
My vote:
It's a strong field and I can't say that there is a really bad nominee that sticks out like a sore thumb among the lot. If I had the vote I'd vote for Minoso, Hodges and Kaat this year. That would result in Wills, Tiant, and Oliva being the strongest remaining candidates and they would be my choices three years from now. Since this is a strong field and I can't say "How in the world did he ever get nominated" about any of the remaining candidates I wouldn't rule out any of them gaining election at some future time.
With the Golden Era Veterans committee Hall Of Fame election just a few days away here's some details on a few candidates that I haven't covered previously plus who I'd like to see get elected - and when. (Just a reminder to readers: While not elected, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso, Gil Hodges and Tony Oliva received the most votes in the last Golden Era election in December 2011. Luis
Tiant and Ken Boyer are also returnees from that election, but their exact vote totals were never revealed and were listed by the Hall Of Fame as receiving 3 votes or less out of 16. Players Dick Allen, Maury Wills, and Billy Pierce as well as executive Bob Howsam were not on the Ballot three years ago.)
Jim Kaat:
While most HOF voters don't give any special weight to career longevity as a factor that may help a candidate get elected, they may have to make an exception in Kaat's case. The 25-year major league veteran (1959-1983) was a three-time 20 game winner and with 283 career wins, didn't miss the coveted 300 wins plateau by much. He anchored the Minnesota Twins rotation (along with some help from curveballer, Camilo Pascual and others, for a team that contended for the pennant throughout the 1960s, and went to the 1965 World Series. Kaat won 18 games that year and 25 the next, his peak years with the Twins. He won 20 twice with the Chicago White Sox at ages 35 and 36 remaining a starter until his late 30s. Then he extended his career another five years by working out of the bullpen with the Yankees and especially the Cardinals, where he won his only World Series ring in 1982.
While doing all this he set new standards for fielding the pitching position, winning 16 Gold Gloves. Once in 1980 a rash of injuries in the Cardinals starting pitching rotation temporarily forced Kaat back into a starter's role. The 41 year old responded by pitching four complete games and one shutout.
In retirement Kaat was a Yankees broadcaster for a few years, but gained greater prominence telecasting games nationally for ESPN and MLB network. He's highly respected, popular, and his continued presence on national broadcasts increases his visibility and can only help his HOF chances.
Tony Oliva:
Oliva burst upon the major league scene with an impact that few players in baseball history can match. He took the American league batting titles in 1964 and 1965, his first two complete seasons in the majors and added a third batting title in 1971. With his high average hitting, speed and extra base hit power Oliva was an extremely exciting player in his early years. Once in a nationally broadcast Saturday Game Of The week when he hit one in the gap and then ran through a stop sign to stretch a triple into a round-tripper he got long time broadcaster Dizzy Dean so worked up that he fumbled the call with Dean declaring "He slides, and Oliva is safe at the plate for an inside the run home park." Oliva was a solid .300 hitter, but hand and wrist injuries limited him to just over 1,900 base hits and diminished his HOF chances from a certainty to just a maybe.
Bob Howsam:
As a Cardinals executive Howsam experienced both sides of a situation that GMs are subject to. He lucked into a situation in 1964 where he was Bing Devine's mid-season replacement at GM. That team then got red hot and went on to win that year's World Series. He was the beneficiary of good timing (right time, right place).
Conversely, Howsam helped sign, trade for and develop players who would be cornerstones on the 1967 and 1968 NL pennant winners, although Howsam wasn't around to get the credit. After the 1966 season he left St. Louis to take the Cincinnati Reds' GM job.
You can't dispute that during his 12 year tenure he at Cincy built a wonderful team, "The Big Red Machine" won four NL pennants in seven years and won consecutive World Series in 1975 and 1976. I won't even offer a prediction in Howsam's case, because it is so difficult to predict the HOF chances of non-players, except for managers.
One thing I have noticed about executives on Veterans Committee Hall Of Fame ballots is that most of them are "One and done" one way or the other. If Howsam doesn't get elected this year it may be his final chance or at least his last chance for election in decades.
Dick Allen:
My Phillies loyalty aside, it's going to be difficult to elect someone who many people thought had attitude problems and never reached his full potential. I think that because he wasn't even on the ballot three years ago, the best he and his supporters can hope for is that he gets a decent vote total that will allow him to remain on the ballot in 2017 and then perhaps his candidacy will build some steam towards eventual election.
Gil Hodges:
See my separate story where I examine Hodges' case in detail. I think he's a deserving candidate. One tidbit that I forgot to include in Hodges story was that with 370 home runs, Hodges ranked 10th in career home runs in baseball history at the time he retired in 1963. He played at a time where home runs were more difficult to come by than today. In Hodges day the average park was much bigger than today's parks and some were enormous by today's standards. His 370 home runs was a big deal in Hodges' time.
Minnie Minoso:
Much underrated, but statistical analysis proves that he was very close to the most complete hitter in 1950s American League play. You might even say he was the best, aside from some superhuman feats accomplished by Mickey Mantle. His career's debut in the majors was delayed by the racial barrier and I'd really like to have seen what he could have done and what superior career numbers he would have posted if there was no Jim Crowism in the 1940s and he could have reached the majors at age 20. Minoso also was no slouch with the glove, winning three late career Gold Gloves for outfielding excellence in three of the first four years after the award was given. He was an all-star at every level: in Cuba, the Negro Leagues the Major Leagues and even in his 40s in Mexico.
His greatest contribution was opening the door for future generations of Latinos of Color. Hopefully Hall of Fame voters this year will elect him recognizing him at last as a racial and ethnic trailblazer...as well as being one Hell of a ballplayer.
Luis Tiant:
As discussed in a previous column (Bob Howsam photo and lead) Tiant's final career numbers were very similar to those of Jim 'Catfish' Hunter. While Hunter won 20 games five times, Tiant did it four times. Their career winning percentages and earned run averages were within a handful of points of each other. Hunter was voted into Cooperstown in just his third year of eligibility while Tiant, 74, used up all 15 years of eligibility on the writers' ballots and a few ballots on the Veterans Committee without gaining election. Bill James in a book published two decades ago suggested that Hunter, with his North Carolina, "Good Old Boy" personality was a good interview, who dished out some memorable quotes Southern Country Boy Style.
This may have made a favorable impression with the writers and helped Hunter's quest for the Hall a few years down the road. Meanwhile, Tiant who didn't come from Cuba to the US until age 20, when he started his career in the minors, always struggled with communicating in English. It's not the whole answer, but you have to factor this in to their dissimilar HOF fates. With otherwise similar records, you can't totally disregard James' theory. Tiant had one of the lowest vote totals in 2011 of any candidate who was retained on the 2014 ballot. If he is to be elected eventually then it's imperative that he make a stronger showing this year.
Ken Boyer:
With barely enough votes in 2011 to be retained on the ballot this year Boyer is in the same boat as Tiant. He needs an improved showing this month just to stay on the ballot three years from now. Twenty years ago Bill James rated Boyer and Joe Torre as the best third basemen who were not in the Hall Of Fame. Torre was elected this year as a manger and that leaves Boyer. Will he gain election this year or in the near future or will he continue to fall just short of the dividing line?
Boyer was a seven-time all-star (six years in succession from 1959 to 1964). He was the 1964 National League's MVP and its RBI leader. He averaged 24 home runs per year for his first ten years in the majors, actually hitting 24 home runs four years in a row (now that's consistent) with a career high of 32 HR in 1960. He was also the National League's best fielding third baseman for a decade and second best 3B in the majors, behind only the incomparable Brooks Robinson.
Boyer won numerous Gold Gloves. His debut in the majors was delayed until 1955, at age 24 due to his call up to military service during the Korean War. Boyer had almost made it to the top of the Cardinals farm system when the military beckoned. He missed the 1952 and 1953 seasons to the service, needed another year to reorient himself in the high minors and finally made his debut in the 1955 season opener. He was a consistent performer for the Cardinals and Mets at the plate for a dozen years through about 1966, but then declined sharply.
Overall he had over 2,100 hits in just over 2,000 MLB games. He hit over 280 home runs and hit nearly .290 for his career. Maybe Boyer was too consistent on an everyday basis for his own good and might have attracted more attention if he'd played with a bit more flair. To this point he hasn't captured the attention, imagination of votes of the Hall Of Fame electorate either. He may continue to fall just short of the mark.
A Note on Veterans Committee voting procedures:
As silly as it may seem that an 87-year-old Billy Pierce or an 82 year-old Maury Wills might have to wait another three years for their HOF candidacy to build some momentum, nevertheless It's True. Neither Pierce or Wills was on the Golden Era ballot three years ago nor was 72-year-old Dick Allen. For HOF voters, it's simply a matter of "out of sight, out of mind". The odds of going from off the ballot to being elected next time out are formidable, if not impossible.
These three however could secure decent totals so that they are almost automatically nominated three years from now and from there candidacy could snowball towards eventual election.
Maury Wills:
This Los Angeles Dodgers and later Pittsburgh Pirates shortstop re-invented the running game along with some help from American leaguer, Luis Aparicio. In the power era of Post-World War Two Major Leagues Baseball the running game had been so deemphasized in favor of "swinging from the heels" power game that nabbing 25 to 30 steals was often enough to lead the league in SB.
When Aparicio reached the majors in 1956 those totals began to pick up. By 1960 he was reaching over 50 steals year in and year out. Wills, however took that trend much, much further. He had a break out season of 104 steals in 1962 and followed with a 94 stolen base season in 1965 - unheard of totals in the modern era. With 535 steals logged from 1960 to 1969 Wills became the first player to have 500 steals in a decade since the "Dead Ball Era". He had a long apprenticeship in the minors, not debuting in the majors in 1959 with the Dodgers until he was almost 27.
Wills was an old-time leadoff man that relied on contact hitting and speed. He averaged only 1.5 home runs per season in a 14 year career. Wills had to focus on things he could do well: fielding the shortstop position as well as he could, getting bloop hits, getting infield hits, perfecting his bunting skills always looking to take the extra base and of course - base stealing. In the end he was truly a revolutionary player, who made a great impact on how the game has been played from his day to the present. A final candidate for the first time in a number of years he may not be able to gain election this year, but his time may be coming soon!
Billy Pierce:
Like Wills, Pierce is a finalist for the first time under the Golden Era election set-up. While he might seem like a borderline guy, I wouldn't rule him out for election particularly if you apply some of the newer statistics to analyze his performance. He won 186 games in 13 years (1949-1961) with the Chicago White Sox and won 211 games overall. He missed he 2,000 strikeouts plateau by a single strikeout and was held in extremely high esteem by his contemporaries, making seven American league all-star teams and he was bestowed with the honor of being the A.L.'s starting pitcher three times.
Now with a lifetime record of 211-169, on the surface 42 games over .500 may not seem like the record of a Hall Of Fame-type superior pitcher. You have to understand, however, that the White Sox were one of the poorest hitting, good teams that you could find. You might say they were offensively challenged.
Throughout Pierce's long stay in Chicago, his White Sox teams always had some serious holes in their lineup. Once you got past Nellie Fox, Minnie Minoso, and over the second half of Pierce's time with the Pale Hose, Luis Aparicio, White Sox managers Paul Richards and Al Lopez struggled to piece together the rest of the lineup. From time to time the White sox had other pluses in their lineup such as Gus Zernial, Eddie Robinson and Chico Carrasquel in the early '50s, Dave Philley in the mid-50s and Al Smith and power hitting, but low average hitting catcher, Sherm Lollar at the end of the '50s and into the early '60s.
That still left gaps in the lineup. A couple of outfield positions and the third base position were never properly filled by some one who could make a major contribution at the plate .So Pierce won nearly 200 games with White Sox teams that gave him mediocre to poor run support. The White Sox somehow won the 1959 American League pennant and they were a consistent second or third place team for a decade. Without Pierce working his magic every fourth day, however, they would have been an under .500, second division team annually. Pierce was dealt to the San Francisco Giants before the 1962 season and it was there that the little lefty (5'10, 160 lbs.) proved that he wasn't done and that his career would have a heroic second act. Pierce notched his 200th career win that year and went 16-6, while his Giants came storming back from a large deficit in the standings to catch the Los Angeles Dodgers on the last day of the season. The resulting tie forced a Best of 3 game playoff series. With the Giants' season on the line Pierce pitched a three-hit shutout in Game One of the playoffs defeating Sandy Koufax. After the Dodgers won the next game to even the series the Giants held a 6-4 lead after eight innings of Game Three. Manager Al Dark called on the one man he knew the Dodgers had trouble facing to nail down the victory in the ninth, Pierce. He retired all three hitters he faced to get the save and the Giants took home the pennant, Quite a clutch performance, but one that is often forgotten today. Pierce managed to have two 20-win seasons and he won at least 14 games ten times with the usually light-hitting White Sox. Had Pierce been with a team that afforded him better run support (say the Yankees and can you imagine the fits the Yanks would have given opponents throwing top of the line lefties Ford and Pierce at them in the same series.
Pierce's Hall Of Fame-worthiness might have been much more of a certainty. He'll have to have a fair showing this year and then perhaps his support for Hall of Fame election will pick up steam next time around. Pierce's candidacy may grow on voters over the next few years.
My vote:
It's a strong field and I can't say that there is a really bad nominee that sticks out like a sore thumb among the lot. If I had the vote I'd vote for Minoso, Hodges and Kaat this year. That would result in Wills, Tiant, and Oliva being the strongest remaining candidates and they would be my choices three years from now. Since this is a strong field and I can't say "How in the world did he ever get nominated" about any of the remaining candidates I wouldn't rule out any of them gaining election at some future time.
Golden Era Candidates Part 4: Gil Hodges
Nov 24, 2014
Written by
Phillies Archivist
Golden Era Candidates: Part 4 Gil Hodges
I was at a monthly Sunday afternoon baseball card show in Northern New Jersey when I struck up a conversation with an affable and chatty card dealer. His specialty was vintage cards from the 1930’s to the 1950’s.
“Let me show you some stuff I just got in” as he dug an album out of a stack. He produced an album of early and mid-1950’s stars and commons. It was a good cross-section of major league talent that covered the years 1950 to 1956. Among his cardboard treasures tucked safely into plastic sleeves on one page was a 1955 Topps Gil Hodges and a 1954 Bowman Minnie Minoso.
“I don’t think the Hall Of Fame should close the books on the 1950s until they’ve elected these two guys” I said as the dealer nodded his agreement.
Unfortunately this conversation took place in 2001 or 2002 and after at least a dozen years these two stars in question are still on the outside looking in of the great Cooperstown hall.
(See separate Minnie Minoso story).
The well of HOF-electable players seemed to run dry in the 1990’s after the elections of Phil Rizzuto (1994), Richie Ashburn (1995), Nellie Fox (1997) and Larry Doby (1998). At that point the Veterans Committee shifted its focus to stars of the 1960’s. A few more players whose careers began in the 1950’s, but who reached their peak productivity in the ‘60’s such as Orlando Cepeda (1999) and Bill Mazeroski (2001) were elected, but clearly the HOF voters had become close-minded to electing any more 1950’s stars.
Gil Hodges and Minnie Minoso were the best position players not elected who enjoyed 1950’s stardom and Billy Pierce and perhaps Lou Burdette and Roy Face topped the pitchers from that era that Cooperstown was now ignoring. Why Gil Hodges has been neglected so long is anyone’s guess, particularly since he was the embodiment of what a 1950’s Brooklyn Dodger should be: athletic, talented, highly competitive, a leader and supremely classy. He was the complete package that you’d want in your everyday first baseman - a highly productive run producer, a power hitter, and among the best fielding first basemen of his era.
In a complicated fielding stat labeled “Range” Hodges was always #1 or close to the top for first sackers annually. He topped the league in fielding percentage a number of times, as well as handling 99% of his chances (.990 fielding %) with regularity. He was to right handed throwing first baseman what contemporary Mickey Vernon was to lefties - the cream of the crop.
As a hitter, Hodges was never going to win a batting title, but he was a superior clutch hitter and run producer. He finished with a .273 career average, hitting .304, .302, .299 and .289 in his four best seasons. That may not knock your socks off, but then consider that he had a career high of 130 RBI in 1954 and topped 100 RBI seven straight years (1949-1955) and had a near-miss with 98 RBI in 1957, the Dodgers final season in Brooklyn. From 1949 to 1959 Hodges hit at least 20 home runs in all eleven of those years, topped 30 home runs six years and reached the 40 home run milestone twice. Reputation-wise, he could not have been held in higher esteem by his contemporaries, making the National League all-star team in eight out of nine years between 1949 and 1957.
I’d really like to discover more about Hodges first game as a pro, because it wasn’t during the spring or summer at some far-flung outpost of the Dodgers empire, at some small city or little town far out west, or way down south, or in some hick mid-west town near Hodges’ Indiana home.
No, it was with Brooklyn in October on the last day of the 1943 season (10/3/43) when he was nineteen years old. The most notable and amusing thing that jumps out at you from the boxscore of his pro and major leagues debut is that Hodges successfully stole a base that day, one of only 63 steals he’d have in his long career. Shortly afterwards Hodges would go into the US Navy to help the war effort and would miss the 1944 and 1945 seasons entirely. He wouldn’t get back to Brooklyn until 1947, where he was used sparingly, but finally was able to claim the Dodgers everyday first baseman’s job in 1948 at age 24. He’d develop quickly and he’d be an all-star by the following year of 1949 at age 25. Hodges had the raw talent to get to the majors at an earlier age than 23 if not for the war and his subsequent military service.
When he finished his playing career one month into the 1963 season, just after his 39th birthday to take the Washington Senators managerial job his final numbers stood at 1,924 hits and 370 home runs. Without the delay caused by military service his career numbers might well have exceeded 2,000 hits and 400 home runs - and 400 home runs in those days of a less lively ball and bigger, often enormous ball parks really meant something back then.
Prior to that he’d anchor two Dodgers Worlds Championship teams, the 1955 Brooklyn team and the 1959 “last team standing” in Los Angeles, as well as numerous pennant winners.
I suppose voters are only supposed to vote on Hodges playing career, but I think voters can’t help remembering that Hodges took a New York Mets team that had never come close to playing .500 ball and guided them to the 1969 World’s Championship - working a minor miracle in the process.
If I were on the Golden Era panel of voters next month, Hodges would certainly have my vote. Why his excellent career numbers have translated into a high of only 63 percent in his best showing on the writer’s ballot and continued rejection by the Veterans Committee is one of those unfathomable mysteries that I’ve tried to understand, but thus far been unable to solve.
I was at a monthly Sunday afternoon baseball card show in Northern New Jersey when I struck up a conversation with an affable and chatty card dealer. His specialty was vintage cards from the 1930’s to the 1950’s.
“Let me show you some stuff I just got in” as he dug an album out of a stack. He produced an album of early and mid-1950’s stars and commons. It was a good cross-section of major league talent that covered the years 1950 to 1956. Among his cardboard treasures tucked safely into plastic sleeves on one page was a 1955 Topps Gil Hodges and a 1954 Bowman Minnie Minoso.
“I don’t think the Hall Of Fame should close the books on the 1950s until they’ve elected these two guys” I said as the dealer nodded his agreement.
Unfortunately this conversation took place in 2001 or 2002 and after at least a dozen years these two stars in question are still on the outside looking in of the great Cooperstown hall.
(See separate Minnie Minoso story).
The well of HOF-electable players seemed to run dry in the 1990’s after the elections of Phil Rizzuto (1994), Richie Ashburn (1995), Nellie Fox (1997) and Larry Doby (1998). At that point the Veterans Committee shifted its focus to stars of the 1960’s. A few more players whose careers began in the 1950’s, but who reached their peak productivity in the ‘60’s such as Orlando Cepeda (1999) and Bill Mazeroski (2001) were elected, but clearly the HOF voters had become close-minded to electing any more 1950’s stars.
Gil Hodges and Minnie Minoso were the best position players not elected who enjoyed 1950’s stardom and Billy Pierce and perhaps Lou Burdette and Roy Face topped the pitchers from that era that Cooperstown was now ignoring. Why Gil Hodges has been neglected so long is anyone’s guess, particularly since he was the embodiment of what a 1950’s Brooklyn Dodger should be: athletic, talented, highly competitive, a leader and supremely classy. He was the complete package that you’d want in your everyday first baseman - a highly productive run producer, a power hitter, and among the best fielding first basemen of his era.
In a complicated fielding stat labeled “Range” Hodges was always #1 or close to the top for first sackers annually. He topped the league in fielding percentage a number of times, as well as handling 99% of his chances (.990 fielding %) with regularity. He was to right handed throwing first baseman what contemporary Mickey Vernon was to lefties - the cream of the crop.
As a hitter, Hodges was never going to win a batting title, but he was a superior clutch hitter and run producer. He finished with a .273 career average, hitting .304, .302, .299 and .289 in his four best seasons. That may not knock your socks off, but then consider that he had a career high of 130 RBI in 1954 and topped 100 RBI seven straight years (1949-1955) and had a near-miss with 98 RBI in 1957, the Dodgers final season in Brooklyn. From 1949 to 1959 Hodges hit at least 20 home runs in all eleven of those years, topped 30 home runs six years and reached the 40 home run milestone twice. Reputation-wise, he could not have been held in higher esteem by his contemporaries, making the National League all-star team in eight out of nine years between 1949 and 1957.
I’d really like to discover more about Hodges first game as a pro, because it wasn’t during the spring or summer at some far-flung outpost of the Dodgers empire, at some small city or little town far out west, or way down south, or in some hick mid-west town near Hodges’ Indiana home.
No, it was with Brooklyn in October on the last day of the 1943 season (10/3/43) when he was nineteen years old. The most notable and amusing thing that jumps out at you from the boxscore of his pro and major leagues debut is that Hodges successfully stole a base that day, one of only 63 steals he’d have in his long career. Shortly afterwards Hodges would go into the US Navy to help the war effort and would miss the 1944 and 1945 seasons entirely. He wouldn’t get back to Brooklyn until 1947, where he was used sparingly, but finally was able to claim the Dodgers everyday first baseman’s job in 1948 at age 24. He’d develop quickly and he’d be an all-star by the following year of 1949 at age 25. Hodges had the raw talent to get to the majors at an earlier age than 23 if not for the war and his subsequent military service.
When he finished his playing career one month into the 1963 season, just after his 39th birthday to take the Washington Senators managerial job his final numbers stood at 1,924 hits and 370 home runs. Without the delay caused by military service his career numbers might well have exceeded 2,000 hits and 400 home runs - and 400 home runs in those days of a less lively ball and bigger, often enormous ball parks really meant something back then.
Prior to that he’d anchor two Dodgers Worlds Championship teams, the 1955 Brooklyn team and the 1959 “last team standing” in Los Angeles, as well as numerous pennant winners.
I suppose voters are only supposed to vote on Hodges playing career, but I think voters can’t help remembering that Hodges took a New York Mets team that had never come close to playing .500 ball and guided them to the 1969 World’s Championship - working a minor miracle in the process.
If I were on the Golden Era panel of voters next month, Hodges would certainly have my vote. Why his excellent career numbers have translated into a high of only 63 percent in his best showing on the writer’s ballot and continued rejection by the Veterans Committee is one of those unfathomable mysteries that I’ve tried to understand, but thus far been unable to solve.
Golden Era Candidates Part 3:
Nov 23, 2014
Written by
Phillies Archivist
Golden Era Candidates: Part 3
Hall of Fame Discrepancies, Issues, News , Notes & Trivia. Evaluating HOF GMs and Executives, Bob Howsam
Bob Howsam, the General Manager who built the Cincinnati Reds’ Big Red Machine of the 1970s is the only non-player nominated for this year’s Golden Era Veterans Committee election. His nomination brings up some thorny issues such as how great would you rate a General Manager’s contribution to a winning team and how ultimately would you rate a baseball executive’s resume as Hall Of Fame – worthy or not.
Hasn’t the groundwork for a championship team often been laid by a GM’s by his predecessor? When the Phillies won the World Series in 2008 was Pat Gillick really the genius who masterminded that team’s fortunes or was he merely the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time? Weren’t many of the stars of that team such as Cole Hamels, Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Jimmy Rollins and Pat Burrell drafted and developed during Ed Wade’s regime as GM?
Howsam definitely was the beneficiary of such a situation when Cardinals’ Bing Devine was fired mid-season in 1964 and Howsam was chosen to replace him. The Cardinals then jelled and went on to have a blisteringly hot final two months of the season. With the Phillies collapse they were able to take the pennant and upset the Yankees in the World Series. Howsam would appear to have had the magic touch but most of the pieces of that Cardinals puzzle were assembled by Devine.
That said, being the man who put together “The Big Red Machine” is an awfully good qualification to have on his Hall of Fame resume. Howsam was the Reds chief executive for 11 seasons, 1967 to 1977 and in a seven year run his team went to the World Series four times – losing to Baltimore in 1970, losing to Oakland in 1972, scoring a narrow victory over Boston in 1975 and then making Yankees Haters deliriously happy by sweeping the Pinstripers in 1976.
Future Baseball Executive HOF Candidates: Scheurholz and Cashman When it comes to selecting executive candidates from a more recent era you can’t do any better than nominate and elect John Scheurholz, who was the Atlanta Braves GM throughout their run of 14 straight divisional titles (1991-2005, excepting 1994 when a players union strike prevented the regular season from being played to its natural conclusion.) He’s moved on from the Braves and is still active in baseball. Perhaps the fact that Schuerholz has not yet retired or taken a less prominent role is the only thing that has prevented him from being nominated already.
Maybe some future day the Yankees’ Brian Cashman will be nominated too. He’s only 47, but in 17years since taking over the GM position Yankees teams have won 4 World Series, made 14 postseason appearances and won the American League East division title 12 times. The biggest argument against him would be that he accomplished all this for the Yankees. He was the beneficiary of the Steinbrenner family fortune in acquiring players through the draft, through trades and in signing free agents. Still Cashman has shown exceptional skill in engineering trades, pushing the right buttons and plugging holes in the Yankees roster.
Luis Tiant & Jim Hunter: Similar Stats, Different HOF Fortunes
Luis Tiant’s final career numbers were so similar to those of Jim “Catfish’ Hunter that it was like Hunter had a Latino twin.
Tiant Hunter
Wins 229 224
Winning % .571 .574
20 Win Seasons 4 5
E.R.A. 3.30 3.26
Strikeouts 2416 2012
The pair’s numbers are very close, with the only major exception being Strikeouts where Tiant was clearly better in topping Catfish’s K total by more than 400. However their fortunes have clearly differed when it comes to the Hall Of Fame.
The writers elected Hunter in 1987 in just his third year of eligibility. Tiant became eligible the following year in 1988 failed to gain election in 15 ballots through 2002 and now is up for his fifth election via the Veterans Committee. El Tiante seems to be following the path of Gil Hodges and Minnie Minoso and is becoming one of the Hall of Fame’s most overlooked major stars.
Jack Morris’ Future as a Veterans Committee Candidate – which path will he take Fox’s or Bunning’s?
The candidacy of Jack Morris has been controversial to say the least. While his supporters say Morris was close to the best pitcher the American league of the 1980s had to offer, his detractors point out Morris’ relatively high 3.90 earned run average, which his supporters counter by stating that much like Warren Spahn, Early Wynn or Robin Roberts, Morris pitched to the score.
He didn’t try to shut everybody out. Once he had the lead he protected it well and isn’t winning the most important thing. That was the approach the three aforementioned Hall Of Famers took and Morris was no different. Having 253 regular season wins and that 10inning shutout he threw against John Smoltz and a couple of Atlanta Braves relievers in Game 7 of the 1991 World Series that enabled Morris’ Minnesota Twins to capture the world title is great to have on his resume.
Any great World Series achievement could be vital to a player’s HOF chances. Certainly without his 1960 World Series winning home run for Pittsburgh, Bill Mazeroski’s HOF election might not have ever happened or been considerably delayed despite his numerous defensive records at 2B. In January Morris used up his last shot at gaining election by the writers. Two years from now he will be eligible for the December 2016 election of The Expansion Era (1973 to 1990s) for the HOF Class of 2017. His chief competition will come from Steve Garvey, Davey Concepcion, Tommy John and Don Mattingly, who like Morris will be before the Veterans Committee for the first time. Many will rate Morris as the best candidate among that group and certainly no worse than second behind Garvey.
Veterans Committee elections are unpredictable, however. For one thing the nominating committee is never made up of the same people who get the final vote and the Hall Of Fame has taken it upon itself to shuffle the voters around so that the panel of electors for succeeding elections is never exactly the same. Morris had over 61 per cent of the vote this year, but actually had his best showing the previous year.
In the 2013 writers election Morris had 67.7% of the vote, not shy of the required 75 % needed for election by a heck of a lot. How have other near- electees via the writers fared with the Veterans Committee in the past? In their best vote totals via the writers Jim Bunning and Nellie Fox came much closer than Morris did to getting elected. In fact, Bunning and Fox missed election by less than one per cent. Aside from the fact that both these stars once got better than 74% of the vote but had to wait years until their cases advanced to the Veterans Committee to gain HOF election their treatment by the Veterans Committee had little in common.
Bunning who debuted in the majors in 1955, retired after the 1971 season. In his 15 elections by the writers he peaked with 74.2 per cent of the vote in 1988, when Willie Stargell was the only electee. Somehow after this near-miss his vote percentage declined in three more elections until he was off the writers’ ballot. Under HOF rules at the time his case was then taken up in his 24th year after he played his final game. Under the Veterans Committee election rules in place in 1995, a candidate not only had to have 75% of the vote, he had to be the top vote getter, as only one modern day player could be elected. Bunning got 75%, but Richie Ashburn trumped him with unanimous support that year to gain election. In the following year, 1996, in his second year of eligibility, no longer having to contend with the ever-popular Ashburn, it became Bunning’s turn and he made it to Cooperstown that July.
Much like the excruciatingly close vote total that denied Craig Biggio HOF election this past January, Nellie Fox, one of the premier second basemen and leadoff men of his day (1947-1965), failed to gain HOF election by one vote in 1985, his final year on the writers’ ballot. After a three year waiting period before the case advanced to the Veterans Committee jurisdiction (which has been shortened to a one year waiting period today) the late Nellie Fox’s case came before the Veterans Committee for the first time in1989, back when all 20th Century candidates were voted on annually.
You would have thought that after missing election by one writer’s vote in 1985, Fox’s election should have been an automatic, a given, a slam dunk, a can’t miss – and whatever synonym or phrase you’d choose to indicate that Fox couldn’t lose. Instead the choice that year by the VC was Red Schoendienst. Tony Lazzeri, Hal Newhouser, Phil Rizzuto, Ashburn and Bunning would all be elected in an eight year period while Fox’s candidacy was kept on hold.
Finally the Veterans committee deigned to elevate Fox to Hall of Fame status in 1997. It’s obvious that for many a candidate, a good showing in the writers elections that falls a little short of reaching that magic 75% total does not translate into an easy election or carry a lot of weight when the case goes to the Veterans Committee. When a new set of Committee members are given the vote for virtually every election there are different eyes on the candidates and different minds deliberating on the candidates’ worthiness – which may greatly help or greatly hurt any given candidate.
What might be scary for the supporters of Jack Morris for election to Cooperstown is the fact that one of the current Veterans Committee Golden Era candidates, Gil Hodges, has been an unsuccessful candidate for decades. His best election total of 63.4% was similar to Morris’ top total of 67.7.and Hodges over the course of his candidacy actually received more support than Morris.
Hodges topped 50 per cent 11 of the 15 years he was on the writers ballot and topped 60 % three times. So in the future which path will Morris take regarding the Veterans committee? Will it be the quick path to election of Bunning or the lengthy delay, but eventual election of Fox? Hopefully it won’t be the path of rejection and non-election that thus far has been Hodges’ fate.
The Ticket
Sometimes I think it’s too bad that HOF candidates can’t run in tandem, like on a Presidential/V.P. ticket. Package candidates on a ticket and if you don’t like one of the two, you’d still be forced to vote for both of them. You could have the 1960s Minnesota Twins ticket (Jim Kaat and Tony Oliva). The 1950’s White Sox ticket (Billy Pierce and Minnie Minoso). The all-hispanic ticket (Minoso, Oliva and Tiant)… or the best remaining position players from the 1950’s (Minoso and Gil Hodges). When two players are closely identified with each other either by era, position, heritage or team aren’t voters both among the writers and veterans committee electorate subconsciously influenced to vote for both.
Ask Whitey Ford. In 1973 in his first year on the Hall of Fame ballot he made a good showing, but didn’t come very close to being elected. The following year, Mickey Mantle became eligible for the HOF for the first time and Whitey, in the vice-president’s secondary role was easily swept into the Hall of Fame Class of 1974 on the coattails of President Mickey.
Minnie Could Set A Record
Minnie Minoso’s birthday will come up soon over Thanksgiving weekend on Saturday, November 29. Officially he will turn 89 then, but some people think that birthday might be his 90th, 91st or even his 92nd. Even if he should be just 89, if he’s elected to the HOF on December 8th through the Golden Era Veterans Committee he would become the oldest living Hall of Famer at the time of election by a large margin. The current record holder is outfielder Elmer Flick, who starred for the Philadelphia Phillies and Cleveland Indians between 1898 and 1910. It was more than a half-century after Flick hung up his spikes before the1911 season that Cooperstown came calling. Flick was 87 when he was finally elected in 1963 and he lived another eight years (1876-1971).
Here’s some info on the oldest 17 at the time of their election.
Player/position/MLB career span/year of HF election/age at time of HOF election.
1. Elmer Flick – OF - (1898-1910) - 1963 -87.
2. Rube Marquard – P - (1908-1925) – 1971 – 85.
3. Harry Hooper – OF – (1909-1925) – 1971 – 84
4T. Kid Nichols – P –(1890-1906) – 1949 – 80.
4T. Stan Coveleski – P – (1912-1928) – 1969 – 80
4T. Dave Bancroft – SS – (1915-1930) – 1971 – 80.
4T. Bobby Wallace – SS – (1894-1918) – 1953 – 80
8T. Leon Day – P – (1939-1950 NEGRO LEAGUES) –1995 – 79
8T. Hugh Duffy – OF – (1888-1906) - 1945– 79
8T. Rick Ferrell – C - (1929-1947) – 1984 – 79
8T. Travis Jackson – SS – (1922-1936) – 1982 –79
12T. Jesse Burkett – OF – (1890-1905) - 1946 – 78
12T. George Kelly – 1B – (1915-1932) - 1973 – 78.
12T. Clark Griffith – P – (1891-1914) – 1946 – 77
15T. Jesse Haines – P – (1918-1937) – 1970 – 77
15T. Phil Rizzuto – SS – (1941-1956) – 1994 – 77
Finally whether you’re Minoso at 89 or those decades younger than Minnie, likely to be elected by the writers this year, Randy Johnson, 51 or Craig Biggio, 49 – there’s one small club no one wants to become a member of. It’s the small group of those players who lived to learn the news that they had been elected to the Hall of Fame, but who didn’t survive long enough to be inducted.
Three such deaths have occurred in Hall Of Fame history:
Shortstop Walter ‘Rabbit’ Maranville HOF 1954 – age 62. A star shortstop from 1912 to 1935, primarily for the Boston Braves, Boston Red Sox and Pittsburgh Pirates.
Pitcher Eppa Rixey HOF 1963- age 71. He would have been part of the 1963 HOF induction class with oldest living Hall of Famer Elmer Flick. Rixey died a month after his election. He was a star pitcher for the Cincinnati Reds and Philadelphia Phillies from 1912 to 1933, notching 266 wins
Leon Day: Negro Leagues. A pitching star from the late 1930s to the early 1950’s and a member of the1946 Negro Leagues World Series winning Newark (NJ) Eagles as a teammate of Monte Irvin. Day died on March 13, 1995 six days after learning that he had been elected to the Hall Of Fame Class of 1995 along with MLB executive William Hulbert and major league players Mike Schmidt, Vic Willis and Richie Ashburn.
-DENNIS ORLANDINI
Hall of Fame Discrepancies, Issues, News , Notes & Trivia. Evaluating HOF GMs and Executives, Bob Howsam
Bob Howsam, the General Manager who built the Cincinnati Reds’ Big Red Machine of the 1970s is the only non-player nominated for this year’s Golden Era Veterans Committee election. His nomination brings up some thorny issues such as how great would you rate a General Manager’s contribution to a winning team and how ultimately would you rate a baseball executive’s resume as Hall Of Fame – worthy or not.
Hasn’t the groundwork for a championship team often been laid by a GM’s by his predecessor? When the Phillies won the World Series in 2008 was Pat Gillick really the genius who masterminded that team’s fortunes or was he merely the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time? Weren’t many of the stars of that team such as Cole Hamels, Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Jimmy Rollins and Pat Burrell drafted and developed during Ed Wade’s regime as GM?
Howsam definitely was the beneficiary of such a situation when Cardinals’ Bing Devine was fired mid-season in 1964 and Howsam was chosen to replace him. The Cardinals then jelled and went on to have a blisteringly hot final two months of the season. With the Phillies collapse they were able to take the pennant and upset the Yankees in the World Series. Howsam would appear to have had the magic touch but most of the pieces of that Cardinals puzzle were assembled by Devine.
That said, being the man who put together “The Big Red Machine” is an awfully good qualification to have on his Hall of Fame resume. Howsam was the Reds chief executive for 11 seasons, 1967 to 1977 and in a seven year run his team went to the World Series four times – losing to Baltimore in 1970, losing to Oakland in 1972, scoring a narrow victory over Boston in 1975 and then making Yankees Haters deliriously happy by sweeping the Pinstripers in 1976.
Future Baseball Executive HOF Candidates: Scheurholz and Cashman When it comes to selecting executive candidates from a more recent era you can’t do any better than nominate and elect John Scheurholz, who was the Atlanta Braves GM throughout their run of 14 straight divisional titles (1991-2005, excepting 1994 when a players union strike prevented the regular season from being played to its natural conclusion.) He’s moved on from the Braves and is still active in baseball. Perhaps the fact that Schuerholz has not yet retired or taken a less prominent role is the only thing that has prevented him from being nominated already.
Maybe some future day the Yankees’ Brian Cashman will be nominated too. He’s only 47, but in 17years since taking over the GM position Yankees teams have won 4 World Series, made 14 postseason appearances and won the American League East division title 12 times. The biggest argument against him would be that he accomplished all this for the Yankees. He was the beneficiary of the Steinbrenner family fortune in acquiring players through the draft, through trades and in signing free agents. Still Cashman has shown exceptional skill in engineering trades, pushing the right buttons and plugging holes in the Yankees roster.
Luis Tiant & Jim Hunter: Similar Stats, Different HOF Fortunes
Luis Tiant’s final career numbers were so similar to those of Jim “Catfish’ Hunter that it was like Hunter had a Latino twin.
Tiant Hunter
Wins 229 224
Winning % .571 .574
20 Win Seasons 4 5
E.R.A. 3.30 3.26
Strikeouts 2416 2012
The pair’s numbers are very close, with the only major exception being Strikeouts where Tiant was clearly better in topping Catfish’s K total by more than 400. However their fortunes have clearly differed when it comes to the Hall Of Fame.
The writers elected Hunter in 1987 in just his third year of eligibility. Tiant became eligible the following year in 1988 failed to gain election in 15 ballots through 2002 and now is up for his fifth election via the Veterans Committee. El Tiante seems to be following the path of Gil Hodges and Minnie Minoso and is becoming one of the Hall of Fame’s most overlooked major stars.
Jack Morris’ Future as a Veterans Committee Candidate – which path will he take Fox’s or Bunning’s?
The candidacy of Jack Morris has been controversial to say the least. While his supporters say Morris was close to the best pitcher the American league of the 1980s had to offer, his detractors point out Morris’ relatively high 3.90 earned run average, which his supporters counter by stating that much like Warren Spahn, Early Wynn or Robin Roberts, Morris pitched to the score.
He didn’t try to shut everybody out. Once he had the lead he protected it well and isn’t winning the most important thing. That was the approach the three aforementioned Hall Of Famers took and Morris was no different. Having 253 regular season wins and that 10inning shutout he threw against John Smoltz and a couple of Atlanta Braves relievers in Game 7 of the 1991 World Series that enabled Morris’ Minnesota Twins to capture the world title is great to have on his resume.
Any great World Series achievement could be vital to a player’s HOF chances. Certainly without his 1960 World Series winning home run for Pittsburgh, Bill Mazeroski’s HOF election might not have ever happened or been considerably delayed despite his numerous defensive records at 2B. In January Morris used up his last shot at gaining election by the writers. Two years from now he will be eligible for the December 2016 election of The Expansion Era (1973 to 1990s) for the HOF Class of 2017. His chief competition will come from Steve Garvey, Davey Concepcion, Tommy John and Don Mattingly, who like Morris will be before the Veterans Committee for the first time. Many will rate Morris as the best candidate among that group and certainly no worse than second behind Garvey.
Veterans Committee elections are unpredictable, however. For one thing the nominating committee is never made up of the same people who get the final vote and the Hall Of Fame has taken it upon itself to shuffle the voters around so that the panel of electors for succeeding elections is never exactly the same. Morris had over 61 per cent of the vote this year, but actually had his best showing the previous year.
In the 2013 writers election Morris had 67.7% of the vote, not shy of the required 75 % needed for election by a heck of a lot. How have other near- electees via the writers fared with the Veterans Committee in the past? In their best vote totals via the writers Jim Bunning and Nellie Fox came much closer than Morris did to getting elected. In fact, Bunning and Fox missed election by less than one per cent. Aside from the fact that both these stars once got better than 74% of the vote but had to wait years until their cases advanced to the Veterans Committee to gain HOF election their treatment by the Veterans Committee had little in common.
Bunning who debuted in the majors in 1955, retired after the 1971 season. In his 15 elections by the writers he peaked with 74.2 per cent of the vote in 1988, when Willie Stargell was the only electee. Somehow after this near-miss his vote percentage declined in three more elections until he was off the writers’ ballot. Under HOF rules at the time his case was then taken up in his 24th year after he played his final game. Under the Veterans Committee election rules in place in 1995, a candidate not only had to have 75% of the vote, he had to be the top vote getter, as only one modern day player could be elected. Bunning got 75%, but Richie Ashburn trumped him with unanimous support that year to gain election. In the following year, 1996, in his second year of eligibility, no longer having to contend with the ever-popular Ashburn, it became Bunning’s turn and he made it to Cooperstown that July.
Much like the excruciatingly close vote total that denied Craig Biggio HOF election this past January, Nellie Fox, one of the premier second basemen and leadoff men of his day (1947-1965), failed to gain HOF election by one vote in 1985, his final year on the writers’ ballot. After a three year waiting period before the case advanced to the Veterans Committee jurisdiction (which has been shortened to a one year waiting period today) the late Nellie Fox’s case came before the Veterans Committee for the first time in1989, back when all 20th Century candidates were voted on annually.
You would have thought that after missing election by one writer’s vote in 1985, Fox’s election should have been an automatic, a given, a slam dunk, a can’t miss – and whatever synonym or phrase you’d choose to indicate that Fox couldn’t lose. Instead the choice that year by the VC was Red Schoendienst. Tony Lazzeri, Hal Newhouser, Phil Rizzuto, Ashburn and Bunning would all be elected in an eight year period while Fox’s candidacy was kept on hold.
Finally the Veterans committee deigned to elevate Fox to Hall of Fame status in 1997. It’s obvious that for many a candidate, a good showing in the writers elections that falls a little short of reaching that magic 75% total does not translate into an easy election or carry a lot of weight when the case goes to the Veterans Committee. When a new set of Committee members are given the vote for virtually every election there are different eyes on the candidates and different minds deliberating on the candidates’ worthiness – which may greatly help or greatly hurt any given candidate.
What might be scary for the supporters of Jack Morris for election to Cooperstown is the fact that one of the current Veterans Committee Golden Era candidates, Gil Hodges, has been an unsuccessful candidate for decades. His best election total of 63.4% was similar to Morris’ top total of 67.7.and Hodges over the course of his candidacy actually received more support than Morris.
Hodges topped 50 per cent 11 of the 15 years he was on the writers ballot and topped 60 % three times. So in the future which path will Morris take regarding the Veterans committee? Will it be the quick path to election of Bunning or the lengthy delay, but eventual election of Fox? Hopefully it won’t be the path of rejection and non-election that thus far has been Hodges’ fate.
The Ticket
Sometimes I think it’s too bad that HOF candidates can’t run in tandem, like on a Presidential/V.P. ticket. Package candidates on a ticket and if you don’t like one of the two, you’d still be forced to vote for both of them. You could have the 1960s Minnesota Twins ticket (Jim Kaat and Tony Oliva). The 1950’s White Sox ticket (Billy Pierce and Minnie Minoso). The all-hispanic ticket (Minoso, Oliva and Tiant)… or the best remaining position players from the 1950’s (Minoso and Gil Hodges). When two players are closely identified with each other either by era, position, heritage or team aren’t voters both among the writers and veterans committee electorate subconsciously influenced to vote for both.
Ask Whitey Ford. In 1973 in his first year on the Hall of Fame ballot he made a good showing, but didn’t come very close to being elected. The following year, Mickey Mantle became eligible for the HOF for the first time and Whitey, in the vice-president’s secondary role was easily swept into the Hall of Fame Class of 1974 on the coattails of President Mickey.
Minnie Could Set A Record
Minnie Minoso’s birthday will come up soon over Thanksgiving weekend on Saturday, November 29. Officially he will turn 89 then, but some people think that birthday might be his 90th, 91st or even his 92nd. Even if he should be just 89, if he’s elected to the HOF on December 8th through the Golden Era Veterans Committee he would become the oldest living Hall of Famer at the time of election by a large margin. The current record holder is outfielder Elmer Flick, who starred for the Philadelphia Phillies and Cleveland Indians between 1898 and 1910. It was more than a half-century after Flick hung up his spikes before the1911 season that Cooperstown came calling. Flick was 87 when he was finally elected in 1963 and he lived another eight years (1876-1971).
Here’s some info on the oldest 17 at the time of their election.
Player/position/MLB career span/year of HF election/age at time of HOF election.
1. Elmer Flick – OF - (1898-1910) - 1963 -87.
2. Rube Marquard – P - (1908-1925) – 1971 – 85.
3. Harry Hooper – OF – (1909-1925) – 1971 – 84
4T. Kid Nichols – P –(1890-1906) – 1949 – 80.
4T. Stan Coveleski – P – (1912-1928) – 1969 – 80
4T. Dave Bancroft – SS – (1915-1930) – 1971 – 80.
4T. Bobby Wallace – SS – (1894-1918) – 1953 – 80
8T. Leon Day – P – (1939-1950 NEGRO LEAGUES) –1995 – 79
8T. Hugh Duffy – OF – (1888-1906) - 1945– 79
8T. Rick Ferrell – C - (1929-1947) – 1984 – 79
8T. Travis Jackson – SS – (1922-1936) – 1982 –79
12T. Jesse Burkett – OF – (1890-1905) - 1946 – 78
12T. George Kelly – 1B – (1915-1932) - 1973 – 78.
12T. Clark Griffith – P – (1891-1914) – 1946 – 77
15T. Jesse Haines – P – (1918-1937) – 1970 – 77
15T. Phil Rizzuto – SS – (1941-1956) – 1994 – 77
Finally whether you’re Minoso at 89 or those decades younger than Minnie, likely to be elected by the writers this year, Randy Johnson, 51 or Craig Biggio, 49 – there’s one small club no one wants to become a member of. It’s the small group of those players who lived to learn the news that they had been elected to the Hall of Fame, but who didn’t survive long enough to be inducted.
Three such deaths have occurred in Hall Of Fame history:
Shortstop Walter ‘Rabbit’ Maranville HOF 1954 – age 62. A star shortstop from 1912 to 1935, primarily for the Boston Braves, Boston Red Sox and Pittsburgh Pirates.
Pitcher Eppa Rixey HOF 1963- age 71. He would have been part of the 1963 HOF induction class with oldest living Hall of Famer Elmer Flick. Rixey died a month after his election. He was a star pitcher for the Cincinnati Reds and Philadelphia Phillies from 1912 to 1933, notching 266 wins
Leon Day: Negro Leagues. A pitching star from the late 1930s to the early 1950’s and a member of the1946 Negro Leagues World Series winning Newark (NJ) Eagles as a teammate of Monte Irvin. Day died on March 13, 1995 six days after learning that he had been elected to the Hall Of Fame Class of 1995 along with MLB executive William Hulbert and major league players Mike Schmidt, Vic Willis and Richie Ashburn.
-DENNIS ORLANDINI
