Admittedly, I far prefer speaking with former athletes than current ones. Not only are they more likely to speak what is on their mind as opposed to upsetting the proverbial apple cart on their respected team or league, they have reached the stage in life where they are more likely to reach objectivity on their careers.

It isn’t that I don’t love talking about statistics and moments, as I certainly do, and a good chunk of this website is dedicated to looking at just that, but discussing how an athlete evolves in their life in ways that don’t reflect on a stat sheet is often the greater story. Once that story finishes, the transition from “athlete to civilian” can prove to be the greatest challenge that any athlete, especially a superstar in their profession can face.

Still, I have always despised the perception that all athletes are one-dimensional beings with the inability to think of anything other than themselves or their chosen sport. More often than not, that is the perception that we thrust upon them, and as it is their athletic exploits that garner the most press, and often their only press. This is not necessarily wrong, as that is their job and what put them in the public eye in the first place but when I had the opportunity to talk to one of Basketball’s true renaissance men, there was no way I was only going to chat with him about what he only did on a basketball court.

Here at Notinhalloffame.com we take pleasure in discussing as many Halls of Fame as possible, and engaging in the debate of that topic. It is a topic we are passionate about, but admittedly our scope has always been intentionally general. With the amount of categories that we cover; we have to!

With that in mind, we thought it would be fun to conduct a series of interviews with individuals who are conducting online campaigns to get their respective artist/athlete inducted to the Hall of Fame.

The first person we reached out to was Mike Litherland, from Atlanta, Georgia, who operates the Induct Janet Jackson to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame campaign. It has a very active Facebook page, holding a sizable near 14,000 Likes.

Janet Jackson has been eligible for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame since 2007, and a case could be made that she was the biggest female singing star in the world at one point in time. Jackson ruled Pop and R&B airwaves for fifteen years, and while casual music fans may not view her as influential, music history has shown that a large amount of Janet clones existed and she was a seamless bridge from Pop to R&B in a way that few could match.

We asked Mike a few questions about his push to induct Janet Jackson to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

On a personal level, what first attracted you to Janet Jackson's music, and what you say is her essential album for someone not familiar with her work to listen to?

“I first remember Janet from her appearances on Good Times. From a musical perspective, though, I remember when she performed ‘Young Love’ on American Bandstand. I was pretty young at the time, probably 11 or 12, but there was just something about her that stood out and made me take notice. I became a 'fan' when Control was released and she completely dominated the music world and the Pop, R&B and Dance charts. I remember hearing Janet all over the radio - and seeing her videos all over the place. I remember being obsessed with Friday Night Videos (on NBC, maybe?). They had a segment called Friday Night Video Fights and my siblings and I would call the 800 # to vote any time one of Janet's videos was in the battle. Those were good times. On MTV, Janet was one of the first African-American female artists to be placed in heavy rotation.

It's difficult to decide on one essential album. As a fan, I consider ‘The Velvet Rope’ to be her masterpiece. It's raw, powerful and very introspective and covers a lot of territory. A very, very close second would be Rhythm Nation 1814. It's quite possibly one of the most cohesive albums in history and would probably be the best pick to play for someone who isn't familiar with Janet's work. Both albums have been listed on Rolling Stone’s list of greatest all-time albums.”

What triggered you to want to try to get her inducted?

“I've enjoyed the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame for years and years. I grew up in Dayton, Ohio so I've actually been to the museum three or four times. I began following the nominations and inductions ten or so years ago. I had no idea how political and convoluted the nomination process is/was. I remember being surprised that Madonna was inducted after her first year of eligibility. Once that happened, though, it made Janet's nomination chances also appear to be a no-brainer. Janet's been eligible since 2007 and still hasn't even received a nomination yet, though. It's definitely a head-scratcher since Janet rivaled and matched her peers of that time (MJ, Prince, Madonna) and they've all been inducted. Janet broke a lot of records and doesn't always get the credit she deserves. I guess that's why I decided to get involved and created the Facebook page a little over a year ago.”

What are the main attributes that Janet has in her music that makes you feel she is a Hall of Famer?

“Janet was able to emerge out of her brother's shadow and even eclipse his popularity during the 90's. She's a very savvy businesswoman and her commercial success is undeniable. She was virtually unstoppable in the 80's and 90's. The Rhythm Nation World Tour in 1990 remains the biggest debut tour of any artist in music history.

The Nomination Committee doesn't factor commercial success into their nomination equation, though. The fact that Janet wrote, co-wrote and co-produced on all albums from 1986's Control through 2006's 20 Y.O. shows how involved she was in the creative process of all of those hit records and albums. That should make quite a statement.

Janet Jackson, Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis created a magical dream team of sorts. Contrary to what some may believe, Janet Jackson was no puppet. She was in control, both literally and figuratively - and proved it with each release being more successful and having a bigger impact than its predecessor. Janet Jackson's music is the soundtrack of the 80's, 90's and 00's.

And then the 2004 Super Bowl performance happened, damaging her career & musical legacy…but we'll get to that in a bit.

Why do you think she has been ignored by the Hall, and not even nominated at this point?

“The fact that Janet hasn't released a new studio album since 2008 has probably hindered her chances a bit. She starred in several hit movies and had a very successful Number Ones Up Close & Personal tour, but has remained out of the spotlight of the public eye for several years now.

I also think there's a bias in the NomCom. It seems to be a very political process and decisions seem to be heavily influenced by a handful of the more persuasive members of the committee. And obviously, there's quite a backlog of deserving artists. At some point, though, they're going to have to add Janet to their nomination discussions. I'm just pushing to have that happen sooner rather than later.

Rumor has it that she's finishing new music now, so hopefully the dry spell is just about over. If the new album is even moderately successful that should also send quite a statement. To have such an incredibly successful career and still be doing it after 30+ years is pretty amazing…and shows tremendous longevity.”

Do you think (serious question) that the Super Bowl Nipplegate affected her chances?

“I won't spend a lot of energy on this question, but the Super Bowl fallout seriously damaged her career and I'm sure that's had an impact on her nomination chances. Should it have a negative impact on her nomination, though? I mean - what's more "Rock & Roll" than that?!?!

In all seriousness, though, I do wish someone could explain why Janet was completely blacklisted in the industry and destroyed by the media yet Justin Timberlake remains unscathed and more popular than ever. I'll leave it that.”

If Janet gets inducted, Is there another act that you feel passionate about getting inducted?

“I'd really like to see The Cure nominated again. I think The Smiths and Depeche Mode are also deserving. Other artists I'd support are: Joy Division/New Order, Bjork, and De La Soul off the top of my head. Other deserving artists that I hope to see nominated when they become eligible are PJ Harvey, Alanis Morissette and A Tribe Called Quest.”

We thank Mike for his time and we look forward to doing more of these type of pieces in the future.

You can like this page on Facebook at this link: https://www.facebook.com/InductJanetJacksonIntoTheRockRollHallOfFame

Or you can follow them on Twitter at @inductjanet

I found that prior to calling Stan Hansen I was a little nervous. Initially, I could not figure out why as I had done many interviews with a lot of people before, so I tried to figure out what was different about this one. I had the opportunity to interview my childhood hero in Baseball (Pete Rose) and a man’s whose poster I had pinned up on my wall in University (Mick Foley), both of which took some time ago and I thought I had long overcome any jitters that came with it.

Then it came to me. This is a man whose matches I used to watch on VHS where he would barrel towards the ring, tobacco spilling out of mouth while swinging his bull rope occasionally hitting the fans. Time after time, that was how he would enter the ring and every time he talked the decibel level was at eleven. Unlike other wrestlers who would go through varying personas, this was the only Stan Hansen I remember seeing; one that I thought might be able to reach through the phone with his rope and hogtie me with it if I asked the wrong question.

As I do with all of my interview subjects I researched other interviews that they had done, though with Stan there were not that many. As Chavo Guerrero Sr. had told me[i] Stan was a private person and not one to open up easy, and the fact that there were not that many interviews around corroborated that.

Once I called Stan Hansen, I realized quickly that I was speaking with not only one of the nicest[ii] men I ever had the privilege of conversing with, and one of the most humble. Considering the vast accomplishments of Stan “The Lariat” Hansen, I was a little surprised by how much he downplayed the impact he had on the business.

Stan Hansen spent most of his career performing in front of a Japanese audience, accomplishing a bible’s worth of accomplishments, most notably winning the All-Japan Triple Crown Title Heavyweight Title four times, the All-Japan Unified Tag Team Championship eight times and won every major tournament that the promotion had to offer. Along with fellow American, Bruiser Brody, Hansen helped to usher in a more physical style that was not just based on strength and power moves, but where no lulls in action took place, and twenty minute matches would not feature rest holds put would be perpetual motion and power.

It was not that Hansen did not have major achievements in the United States. In 1977, he was in a main event program with Bruno Sammartino in the then named World Wide Wrestling Federation, and when the industry enjoyed its boom period in the mid 80’s, Hansen was the World Heavyweight Champion of the still relevant American Wrestling Association. Five years later, he had a six-month program in the NWA[iii] where he won the prestigious United States Championship from “The Total Package” Lex Luger.

The brain trust at both the WWF and WCW coveted Hansen and could have easily slotted Hansen into a main event program with whoever was their champion at the time and drew money. A Hansen VS Hulk Hogan series would have been entertaining[iv] as world the Texan against any of the other top draws the WWF or WCW had during that time period, and it is not that they neither top American promotion wouldn’t have grabbed him if he made himself available[v].

North American fans may have salivated over those possibilities, but could it have been as good as the matches we saw Hansen in against Mitsuharu Misawa, Jumbo Tsuruta or Kenta Kobashi? With wrestling fans engaging in tape trading in the 1990’s, Hansen’s Japanese legacy of elite matches was seen my hardcore fans, and with the creation of YouTube in 2006, Stan Hansen’s matches in Japan have found a whole new audience, and reminded older fans why the “Lariat” was one worth watching.

For about thirty minutes, I had the privilege of speaking with Stan Hansen about his autobiography, wrestling in Japan and his role in Hulk Hogan’s first starring role, No Holds Barred and his appearance in 2010, inducting Antonio Inoki to the WWE Hall of Fame.

I really enjoyed my conversation with Stan Hansen that I am able to share with all of you and I will treasure the time after the interview where Stan and I spoke about our mutual friend (Chavo Guerrero Sr.), life in the Rockies[vi] and life in general.



I want to first congratulate you on your autobiography (The Last Outlaw) that has recently come out. It has been getting some good reviews online, and has received an overall positive response.

“Through my publisher and through the people that I have actually talked to have read it; that being some of the old time wrestlers, they seemed very positive. That means a lot to me, and that’s the most important thing. I am glad that people have said some good things out there. I don’t know a lot of what they said, but I’m glad to hear it.”

A lot of the positive comments stemmed from your attention to detail and insight into the Japanese wrestling culture, which a lot of North American wrestling fans don’t know much about. It was nice to get a deeper insight into that world, beyond just the matches.

“Right. When I set out to write the book, I wanted to talk about the business there and the great characters. It’s not about the inner workings of the business, but about the great people that I met. That was the reason for the original book.”

As I understand, this wasn’t your first book, as you have an autobiography in Japan, right?

“That’s right. I expanded on this more, as the (English) language allows me to do much more.”

What has always fascinated me about your career is that as much as you wrestled most of your career in Japan, you still gained a sizable following in North America and so much of what you did here had an impact.

“You know, I don’t know if that’s because of word of mouth, or people just started seeing the tapes from Japan. I’m going to tell you why I did more in Japan. I just had some great opponents that people were interested in seeing me wrestle. You’re only as good as the person you’re in there with. I say that in the book, but it really is true. I had some awesome guys over two generations that were really great wrestlers. If people hold me to a high regard, a lot of is because of the guys I worked with to be honest.”

You have gone against anyone that ever mattered in Japan. I believe you are the only American to hold victories over Antonio Inoki and Giant Baba?[vii]

“I think I read that somewhere. I don’t know if someone else has or hasn’t.”

What has always also fascinated me about many of the wrestling stars from the 70’s and 80’s, more opposed to now, is just the incredible cardiovascular ability that you and many of your peers had. Many of the chiselled bodybuilder types couldn’t go in the ring as long as you could. What type of training regimen did you do to have that type of stamina?

“You know I’ve been called a lot of things and most of them are pretty bad but muscled isn’t one of them! (laughs) I come from a different age before it turned into more of a bodybuilding type physique. I come from the old football type mold where you fought in the trenches.[viii] In football, you run, you get pounded you pound other people, you get up and you do it again. For me it all started with Football, and I played Basketball and Baseball too. You had to go in the ring in Japan.

The specimens today, they put a lot of hard work, and it’s not all steroids, these guys are really dedicated. Why it changed, I don’t know, but I’m glad I’m from the old school.”

Would you say that you were not just built to be a wrestler, but a wrestler in Japan, as that style suited you more than anything else that was going on in the United States?

“I think I was one of the guys that helped change the styles in Japan. In the late 70’s it really started to change. There a lot of guys that I respect in Japan. It changed from ‘one tackle, drop down and do it again’ to something more aggressive. I would witness other people do that for short bursts, but I wanted to take that up a notch and keep going through the whole match. There were a lot of people who would end up doing that style or try to do that style, but it was hard. Physically, it’s hard to do day in and day out.”

Would it be safe to say that because that style was not really implored in the United States that you did not wrestle more here?

“Well, another reason I gravitated to Japan is that I got tired of fighting all the American promoters about money. In Japan, I knew what I was going to make, and I liked that. This was also before they (the WWE) handed out guaranteed contracts. In Japan I could budget myself because I knew I would make X amount of dollars. I could spend this much, and the rest of it I was going to save. I was in it to try to get ahead because I knew I couldn’t do it forever.”

I have always heard great things about Giant Baba[ix], and Chavo (Guerrero Sr.) has told me that he was a man of his word. I can imagine that when this is the type of man you are working for that you would not really want to work for anyone else.

“That’s a big part of it, but I have to say that (Antonio Inoki)[x] gave me the opportunity. He gave me that opportunity to get established in Japan. I went to Baba and wound up working for him for twenty five years. He (Baba) allowed me to continue the style (I was developing) and he wanted my style and wanted to promote that style. It ended up changing their business. It was great working for him and I really enjoyed it.”

I am sure you are asked about the WWE all the time and why you did not go there during the Hulk Hogan period, but I do want to compliment you on a small role you did with the company, when you were in the (WWF Produced) film, “No Holds Barred”. I am not trying to denigrate Hulk Hogan,[xi] but the film wasn’t that good, but you were great in it.

“Well, I didn’t have a big part. It’s funny, have you just seen it?”

Not recently, but when I was doing additional research before calling you, I was reminded of it, and searched out your clip before I called you. What I found interesting though, is that you were in the film which was produced by the WWE, but you were not contracted with them. How did that come about?

“Vince Jr. told me that when he and Hogan were talking about it, and Hulk said ‘you know who could do this part? Stan Hansen’. That’s the reason I got it and I appreciate them thinking of me for it. I had never done a movie before and I had never done one since. It’s funny that you bring the movie up. When that movie came out I took my kids and their friends to see it in on a matinee in a theatre in Mississippi. There were about fifteen people there and we were ten of them and that was the only time I ever saw the movie, until recently when my wife found it online and ordered a tape of it. I forgot all about it; it was out of sight, out of mind.”

I remember a review from one of the wrestling magazines, and I can’t believe I remember this; but it spoke about the movie and praised you for being one of the only characters in the movie that didn’t stink.

“(Laughs) You mean physically stink?”

(Laughs) I believe it said you were a “natural and funny character”.

“All these years later I wonder what would have happened if I pursued being a character actor.”

Really?

“Yeah. There are so many things I couldn’t play, but if they wanted a goofy type of character I believe I could have done that, but those days are passed.”

Now that you bring it up, I think of every role that Terry Funk had in acting, you could have played. You would have made a great bouncer in Road House.[xii]

“Terry ended up doing a lot of movies. He ran with that a little bit. I think that’s good.”

I think that another thing you should be praised on is that when you walked away from in ring wrestling, you walked away for good. So many other wrestlers came back after they retired or just so many athletes in general. You strike me as someone who once you ended your career decided that you were done, and moved on with your life and never looked back. Was retiring from the ring hard for you, or were you ready to move on?

“It really wasn’t hard. It has been hard to convince people that I am finished though. I thought long and hard and I had a standard that I wanted to try and maintain. I had seen so many guys retire and come back, and retire and come back. I told myself that when the time is right I would retire and not do that.

When I felt the physical limitations of my body, I decided that was it. I had a match in Japan and felt that like I couldn’t do what I used to. I had a couple of more matches after to finish the tour out, but I knew that was it”

Also it appears that you do not define yourself as a former wrestler, and so many of your peers haven’t been able to do that.

“Another thing is that they had a retirement ceremony for me in Tokyo during a wrestling show. They made a huge deal out of it. Mrs. Baba[xiii] promoted my retirement and gave me a great retirement program, not just for the wrestling card but there was a week of events. I had my whole family there and she treated me with great respect and all the Japanese people poured out to show their respect.

I never took myself super serious, but they made me realize that they did see something in me, and it was really humbling for me. I could never ever insult those people by coming back and wrestling. I was physically ready anyway and I had done all I could do.”

It is safe to say that you are Stan Hansen; “Husband and Father” now?

“(Laughs) I appreciate all the fans, I do, I still go to Japan from time to time and they (New Japan) still bring me for special events and I like that. I don’t miss the wrestling, or the limelight. But now that I’m sixty-four years old, and time is clicking. It’s time to go back and reconnect with the fans in some way, because when I was wrestling I was not one to be connected to the fans. It was a business. When I got through wrestling I went back to Colorado or Texas and spent time with my family. Nobody knew me as anything else but someone’s dad, and I liked that.

As I’ve grown older and I am reconnecting with the fans and it feels good to hear that people have good thoughts about me, but to be honest, I don’t miss the wrestling at all.”

I imagine your body doesn’t miss it either!

“(Laughs) That’s true. I got four artificial joints and probably need a couple more. Anyway, I feel OK though.”

In 2010, you inducted Antonio Inoki to the WWE Hall of Fame.

“Right”

How did that process come about? Did Antonio contact you, or were you contacted by the WWE?

“I can’t remember exactly who contacted me, but I believe that Inoki asked for me. Maybe they gave him a couple of choices; I don’t know, but I am sure he had something to do with it.”

With your Japanese legacy, you were a great choice to induct him.

“I was really happy to do that. That was the first time that I had ever been around the WWE since Vince Jr. took over. I must say that I was unbelievably impressed with the organization; it blew me away. They run a great organization whether you like their style or not.

I worked for Vince Sr.[xiv] and Vince Jr. was there. Business wise, you never get along one hundred percent with people, but I have nothing negative to say about Vince Jr. They have taken wrestling and evolved it. Everything changes. I’m old school and I’m proud of that but that doesn’t mean that I have anything negative this new type of wrestling. They are great athletes. I don’t watch it, but you can’t help but see that these guys are in great shape.”

You yourself are a member of the Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame.[xv] How did you feel being selected for that?

“I felt really good about that. It is done by your peers. Your peers have to nominate you and they have to vote on it. I was honoured to be chosen. The WWE has their Hall of Fame, and their other Halls of Fame[xvi] out there, but this one is done by my peers and it means a lot to me.”

---

[i] Chavo, who has become not only a great friend to the website but also a personal one, facilitated this interview.
[ii] Stan spoke to me about he never wanted to bury anyone in an interview. He also spoke about he lives up to the expression, if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything philosophy. Conversely, finding anyone who says anything bad about Stan Hansen is next to impossible also.
[iii] This was in the year before the NWA become WCW (World Championship Wrestling)
[iv] That match did happen in Japan. It should also be noted that Hulk Hogan and Stan Hansen are friends.
[v] Or How about Stan Hansen VS Sting in WCW or the Undertaker in the WWF. Both would have been huge money and unique programs.
[vi] I live in the Canadian Rockies, and Stan has a home in by the Colorado Rockies. We both have a lot of experience with wild elk crossing our homes!
[vii] Putting that in an American context, it is like holding a victory against Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant
[viii] Hansen played Collegiate Football at West Texas State.
[ix] Baba owned All-Japan Professional Wrestling, which is where Stan wrestled the majority of his matches in Japan for.
[x] Inoki ran the All-Japan rival, New Japan Pro Wrestling. Both All-Japan and New Japan remain the top two wrestling organizations in Japan today.
[xi] Personally, it is one of those guilty pleasure films. The last time I stumbled across it on cable, (which was years ago) I dropped what I was doing to watch it. When the WWE rereleased it on DVD a few years ago, they acknowledged the cheese factor that the film has.
[xii] Talk about the ultimate guilty pleasure movie! Picturing Stan Hansen telling Patrick Swayze “If you don’t start drinking you’re out of here!” is not hard to imagine. Funk was also in Sylvester Stallone’s arm wrestling film, “Over the Top”.
[xiii] Stan retired in 2000. Giant Baba passed away the year before, and All –Japan was owned by his widow, Motoko Baba.
[xiv] Stan had a high level program against Bruno Sammartino against the then named WWWF culminating in a match at Shea Stadium which had an attendance of 32,000.
[xv] He was inducted in 2010 in the Modern Era category.
[xvi] In 1996, Stan was also selected to the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame.

One of the great perks of running this website is that I occasionally I get to interview some very interesting people. With that said, I am confident that I have never spoke with anyone tougher than when I spoke with former USFL player and Professional Wrestler, Steve Cox. Seriously, I think if I angered him over the phone, he would have had the ability to summon up the ability to reach through my I-Phone and render me an invalid at will.

Steve may have also been one of the funniest people I have had the pleasure to talk to. As i listened back to his stories in his distinctive Midwestern drawl, the amount of times I found myself bursting out laughing eclipsed any other interview I have ever done.[i]

I found the timing to be perfect. Currently, the WWE is promoting a Mid-South wrestling DVD, and though Cox did not officially compete there, he was there in final portion of Mid-South’s finale, the UWF. Cox may not have been the biggest name in the business, but he did compete against and befriend those who were. He also was an amateur wrestler who would later compete in the early shoot promotions in Japan, which itself would foreshadow the Mixed Martial Arts that has become popular now.

With special thanks to our mutual friend, Chavo Guerrero Sr., I hope you enjoy the transcript of my chat with Steve Cox.

You had a great football career at the University of Tulsa, correct?

“I grew up out in the middle of nowhere, three miles across into Kansas, and I was a real good Linebacker and wrestler and I got a full ride scholarship to Tulsa University. That’s how I got there.”

This took you to the USFL right?

“Yeah, I got out of school and then I got drafted.[ii] I was signed by the New Jersey Generals and was there when Herschel Walker came in. I am going to show my age, but this was back when ESPN was showing us and we were a bunch of lunkheads wondering who would watch 24 hours of sports. This was the early days of (Chris) Berman. Chuck Fairbanks was our Coach.[iii]

I was traded from to the Michigan Panthers[iv] so I went from Hackensack, New Jersey to Pontiac, Michigan and Jim Stanley was our coach. He was one of the original guys who went off with Bear Bryant at Texas A&M. He was a real hardcore coach. Anyway, I was getting beat up pretty badly, and I decided to get out (of Football).”

You mentioned that you were an amateur wrestler in school. Were you a fan of pro wrestling when you were growing up?

Heck no! Now I grew up in Kansas, so I was familiar with Bob Geigel and Harley Race and all those guys. Every now and then we caught a glimpse of the old WWF out of New York. But as a collegiate wrestler, though this has changed since Kurt Angle, a lot of the “real” wrestlers didn’t appreciate “fake” wrestling.

As I got out of the USFL, and back in the day there weren’t a lot of gyms, and I always went to Moguin’s Gym by TU (Tulsa University). When the wrestlers came through, that’s where they worked out. I was actually talking to of all people, Sting[v] and he asked me if I ever thought about being a pro wrestler, and I said ‘not really’. That weekend there was an article in the paper about the UWF, Bill Watts and the Rock and Roll Express and how they had a sold out crowd downtown. The guy who owned the gym was a friend of Bill Watts and he called him up and I met Bill Watts.[vi]

I didn’t realize at the time what Bill was all about. He asked me if I had (wrestling) boots and I said no. He said I had no possibility in hell until I go t some boots as he couldn’t get me in the ring and do much with me. He said, stay and watch the show, and they did TV every Sunday night in Tulsa and that place was sold out like lightning.

I got some boots in this place out of Arkansas. Back in the day, there weren’t too many places you could buy (wrestling) boots unlike now where you can buy them all over the place. Anyway, I got my boots and I got my trunks and I got a call that he wanted me at the arena at four o’clock, which was pretty early because they started at seven. I get there, and he (Watts) says suit up, and I go out to the ring. We’re in the middle of the ring and Watts says ‘Hit the ropes’, and I’m running back and forth hitting the ropes. He said ‘Drop down, hit the ropes. Drop down, hit the ropes’, then he says be at my house, which was near Tulsa at two o’clock Sunday.

I got to his house and we drove to Miami, Oklahoma and we go to this armory and he said you’re going to wrestle tonight. I’m like ‘Oh Shit, I’m not planning on it!’, but I get to the arena and there is Terry Taylor, Rick Steiner, Doc (Steve Williams) and my first match is with Mike George.

It was a small armory, but this place was packed to the ceiling with people. I go out there and Mike George[vii] is my first match and Tommy Gilbert is the referee. I should have known from the first match when I went over that I was being brought in as Dr. Death’s protégé, but I had never took a bump. Mike was slamming me, giving me boots, but Tommy was getting in my ear that ‘we have a superstar here!’ I couldn’t even breathe during the match! Mike did the deal where I grabbed the ropes and he falls back and then 123 kick and I take a powder and I am beat to shit.

After, Terry Taylor says ‘Now why would Watts want a jabroni[viii] to get ahead?’ you know what I’m saying? They’re all inquisitive and watching ‘cause Watts liked big men. That’s why he used to crack on the Memphis territory, and how you had to put over midgets[ix]. Watts wanted you to understand that you had to bump for the right people at the right time.

That night, there was (Skandor) Akbar from Devastation Incorporated[x] , The One Man Gang, Eli the Eliminator and Bill said to me that I can’t to a Stampede run[xi] which was Doc’s finisher so I was told to do a Side Russian Leg Sweep for my finish. I think Bill Irwin came up with that. The deal that night was that I would go watch Doc have a match with Mike George which was a technical match. Doc goes over and Devastation runs in, and I jump in. Now, I don’t know shit about the business, that’s how green I was. After that, every night I was working and every night I was getting killed in the ring. I was getting crowbarred, the old school way. There wasn’t a lot of wrestling schools; that was my school, right there.

They came up with an angle where I would be the Rookie of the Year. My first marriage[xii] was really against Gary Young. He really cleaned me up pretty good. Every night we did the same match, but it was always different. I don’t know if you heard some of the boys say this, but (Ric) Flair’s match was always the same but they are always different.[xiii] The boys knew how to tell the difference.

At the time I was fortunate enough to run around with the top guys and I kept my mouth shut, and I learned a lot. I had my first ever squash match, I put over Bubba (Rogers) real good; Watts loved that; which helped Doc when he went in to help. The thing about Watts is that he told me a lot of stuff that didn’t make sense at the time, but it helped me later on to see the business as not just as worker but as a promoter.”

Did you get some heat with the boys because you came in with a decent position, especially since you did not have a professional wrestling background?

“Oh yeah. I was brought in, green as green could be and at the time Bill Watts was negotiating with the NWA[xiv] . We were working tight every night. Now when they would come at me, and I’m not the sharpest guy on the stick but when we got to a certain point, I was like ‘Fuck You’, and I would stand up (for myself). Like I said, I was a real good High School athlete, I wrestled, I played Football, I could slow them down. But I had to respect the fact I was crowbarred in, and it wasn’t easy for them to take that. I understood. Nowadays (aspiring wrestlers) go to school; real boy band shit. In my day it wasn’t that way. You had to be one mean, tough son of a bitch to get through this shit! Staring out the way I was (with a good spot), it just wasn’t done that way.

I remember Terry Taylor, he had to lace up my boots[xv] . Terry said ‘Look at this fucking guy!’. It was hilarious. Chavo (Guerrero Sr.) of all people showed me how to tuck in my laces. That’s how bad I was, I didn’t know how to lace up boots. These guys would thump me pretty good, because I couldn’t lace up boots. If I couldn’t do that, why would they want give me anything (in the ring)? “

Was there anyone who took you under their wing when you were starting out?

Yeah, Chavo. He was the most consummate worker, he understands the business, and he grew up in the business. Everything he did (in the ring) had meaning. He was the total package, and he was one hell of a partier! Sometimes he would go too far out there, and you would have to reel him back in, but that was Chavo!

I had Gary Young, I had Doc, and Terry Gordy.   I would ask them to watch my matches and have them critique it. This is another way that Watts helped me; he said when they tell you what to do, don’t say ‘Yeah, but’. They don’t care what you’re thinking. Listen to what they’re telling you. They will check to see if you listened, and from there you will get more information.

I just lived, learned and watched. I rode with everyone from Flair, Arn Anderson and really everyone. You have to realize that in my first year to two years in the business I had almost five hundred matches. I was dong singles and tags often on the same card, and as a new guy that was the norm.

One night, me and Sting after (Ultimate) Warrior left[xvi] I pained my face and worked with him as his partner against (Rick) Steiner and somebody else. Jeff Gaylord, I think. Think about it, these indy kids nowadays wouldn’t be working with the best in the business in their first five hundred matches. That doesn’t happen anymore. The work was tough. We weren’t just suspending disbelief, we were really tough. In time, I could work 60’s style, 70’s style, 80’s style, 90’s style, Bullrope Match, two minute match, six minute match; whatever.

The most important match is the opening match. A lot of green guys don’t even know that. The opener sets the tempo and the crowd. It is not an easy match, usually fifteen minutes and a time limit draw; a lot of false finishes. These kids today don’t know; you don’t get that anymore.”

You were there when the NWA merged with the UWF. Chavo Guerrero told me that he didn’t see it coming, and that it was a surprise to him. Was it a surprise to you also?

“A lot of people thought something was up. Now I didn’t really, because I was just happy to be in the same locker room as these guys, but it goes back to what Bill always said which is ‘negotiate your own contract’. Now that was his territory, and he gave us ‘We’re all in this together’ speech about generating synergy (between the two organizations). Well, he dropped the bottom out and he skated out, and we didn’t get much out of that deal. There were a lot of guys hot.”

Where did you go after that (the NWA UWF Merger)? Did you go to the NWA?

“The deal was that Dusty Rhodes[xvii] was the one who called me and told me I wasn’t needed anymore. I needed a break as my body was beat to shit. I got a call from (Bob) Geigel, and I just wanted to work with “Bulldog” Bob Brown[xviii], so I asked if Bulldog was still there. I wanted to work there just to get my picture taken with Brown and send it to my roommate from College who was from Kansas City and was a big Bulldog Bob Brown fan.

I went up there, and anytime you walk into the territories, they might know you, they might not. TV coverage wasn’t that national yet. I remember I worked a match with Mike Golden. I didn’t know much about Mike and how great he was until we got in the ring. As soon as we tied up after two minutes I was like ‘Let’s get it on’ and we had a good match. I worked for about a week up there.

Then I get a call from the same place that ran the office side for the UWF and they told me that WCCW is coming in and I was asked if I wanted to tag up with Michael Hayes going up against the Samoans[xix] , but you got to lose. I’m told them I’m there.”

You were brought in as Michael Hayes’ protégé, were you not?

“It kind of worked out that way. Really, they wanted (Jimmy) Garvin, but Garvin and Michael couldn’t hold up the way the Samoans worked. It was only supposed to be one match, but the Samoans loved me. Anyway, I get a call from Pritchard down there, asking me if I could be there for Friday. It was funny, because Michael really pushed for Garvin, but the office was like nope, and they liked the big, blonde Texas style wrestler, you know what I’m saying?

I go down there, and this is where I first met Fritz (Von Erich)[xx] . They were trying to negotiate with me, but I already had a deal in hand with Kansas City but it was a good deal to down to Texas. I signed a contract, though it took a while as we kept going back and forth and I finally said ‘I’m out of here’, and he said, ‘Hey, hold on’, and we hammered it out. That was the first time I met Fritz, though I had no fucking clue who Fritz was. We shook hands, and I never worried once about my paycheck. I was now working with Michael against the Samoans and we had one of the top tag team programs in the United States. It was a real good time.”

You did a few shots with the AWA, did you not?

“Oh yeah, but that was all tied in. By that time, everything was crumbling. What happened was, I talked to the guys in Atlanta[xxi] , and they were like ‘You don’t want to come here!’ Usually, I give people the benefit of the doubt but if there is one person in life and literally I would do this for the boys, I would KO Eric Bischoff. I knew some guys there. The Steiners, Buff was there and Steve Austin. Hell, I’m the one who told (Austin) to go to Texas! Of all the people one night, he asked me to watch his match over in Memphis. I was kind of impressed that this kid wanted me to watch his match. I said the first thing you got to do is change the name from Steve Williams. He said to me, ‘There is another Steve Williams?’ I swear to God, he said that! I started to laugh thinking that this fucker was as dumb as I was! In the business, I was probably the dumbest son of a bitch to come in, and I wear that proudly because I humble myself to the fact that I was one dumb son of a bitch. He asked what name I should have, and I said do the porno shit, where you take the first name of your first pet, and the last name is the street you grew up on. As everything was falling apart (The territory system in American Wrestling), I was doing a lot in Japan.

Which promotion in Japan?

The UWFI and New Japan. I was also with another upstart shoot promotion. Doc got me over there. It was good money; I was making $2,500 a week there. I didn’t do a lot of indy shows around Tulsa, but I did do them all over the Midwest. I even did some in Philadelphia before ECW started. I worked a lot with Mankind (Mick Foley), before he was Mankind. I remember the 1-2-3 Kid coming in[xxii] , I did a lot with Shane (Douglas) back East and did Europe too. I got to see a lot of Europe with Shane, and we tagged up a bunch. I like the way that Shane kind of morphed into that “Franchise” character.

Actually, I would like to talk to you more about Japan.

Let me break it all down. All-Japan had a death grip on that whole market over there, and a lot of guys were starting to do their own shows. You know Gary Albright?[xxiii] ”

Yes.

“Gary Albright and the Shoot promotion over there.”[xxiv]

Was that a more fitting style for you?

“I suplexed the hell out of those people! But, I had to take some serious shots there, but the money was so good. It was funny, I was working with one group, and there was a lot of cross promotion. I remember at the Tokyo Dome, when (The Great) Muta showed up, and I was drunk as shit. I knew Muta, as his first American tour was in WCCW with us. I worked a bunch with Muta. They were pretty prejudiced towards us gaijins[xxv] , but yeah, I bounced around and worked with five different groups over there. I did a lot of submission style wrestling there. I also did a lot of boxing and pad up with linemen’s gloves. Yeah, it was rough.

In Japan, I slowly started stepping over into the real world. I got a call from New York (The WWF) and at the time they were getting their ass kicked by Atlanta. In today’s world you wouldn’t think about it. The money (in the WWE) is so good, but they run your ass ragged in the ground. That’s why all these guys flamed out, suicide but for three million dollars and 250 days on the road, you just shut the fuck up and do it.”

What made you want to leave wrestling?

“I was in Iowa, and I saw a father and son fight over cocaine in the locker room, I thought do I want to have that conversation with my son? None of these guys had good relationships with their kids until much later when they begin to understand. I made up my mind that I would try coaching football. I wouldn’t make as much money, but I would have a better life. I didn’t get out clean, as I had to go to rehab but overall I did transition well (out of wrestling) when it is all said and done. I was a onetime rehab guy, and I have been clean and sober ever since.”

So you were able to put wrestling behind you. That in itself is a success story as many other former wrestlers have not been able to do that. I am thinking of an example where Diamond Dallas Page is trying to get Jake “The Snake” Roberts recovered, and one of the constant threads in the videos he has put out is that if he fails he won’t be able to get a slot at the Royal Rumble. This is the carrot that Jake seems to need to be motivated. One more pop from the crowd. Let’s say he does get that appearance, and then what will be his motivation? What does he do next?

“Oh, I’m telling ya! Bill Watts told me never to wind up in a cage where people are throwing crumbs at you. That’s where Jake and some of these other guys are at tight now. I think Chavo’s a lot like this too; I think I am a renaissance man. I have been a business owner, a teacher, a coach, I have done sales, and I was in College. I didn’t do the best, but I got a degree. I always told my son, that you can do anything you want to do as long as you harness yourself. You learn as much you can and then make it your own, and then you can do as well as they have done. I have had a lot of different careers.

When I look at Scott Hall[xxvi] , I think ‘God Damn’. You want to hand him a pistol and just say ‘Go ahead and shoot yourself and get it over with’. That sounds really crass, but at some point you have to fight for your life. They will tell you (in rehab) that is not your fault, but fuck that. I got in trouble, because I partied too much, and that was my fault. They kept telling me why I failed, and they coddled it. What really helped me a bunch was dealing with a bunch of old-time drunks.

I’ll tell you the thing I miss about the wrestling business is that I didn’t wrestle in New York. I never went against (Hulk) Hogan, but I have been with everyone from Harley Race, Ric Flair, the Andersons; I had a good run.”

Steve, I always like to close with a bit of word association. I will mention a wrestler and just tell me what word comes to mind, or if something triggers, feel free to expand.

“Alright.”

Eddie Gilbert

“Genius. A great booker, and he did some great angles. He was humble. It wasn’t about him, it was about the book.”

Rick Steiner

“Goofy. Craziest guy I have ever been around in my life. A great consummate worker.”

Kerry Von Erich

“I’ve never seen anybody, and I’ve been a lot of places, I have never seen anybody radiate a room like he could. He just had it. Kerry walked in, and they knew he was a somebody. They might not know who, but they knew he was a somebody.”

The One Man Gang

“Scariest son of a bitch I ever saw. When I first saw him, he spits at me but misses out of politeness. A great big teddy bear of a guy”

Kamala

“Great match. I did some big time spots with him. What a great guy to work with. I loved working with Kamala.”

I think you were there when he started his career, Booker T.

“Yeah. Booker and his brother. When they came in, and don’t get me you wrong, you got to have a lot of swag, you know what I’m saying? I was really surprised he made it has high but I’m not. He was always learning, he picked up his craft quick. He went from a loud thug to someone who mastered his craft. He and Stevie. I liked him. Tag matches; people don’t’ realize what an art form tag team wrestling is. It’s a whole different part of the business that you have to learn. We actually crossed paths more in Japan then we did over here. It was funny, you would go to Ribera’s[xxvii] and that’s how you would find out who all is in the country. In the business, nobody ever says goodbye, they’ll say see you down the road. In that line of work, that’s a fact. You’ll cross paths somewhere.”

The 1-2-3 Kid

“He just got to Texas, and he was already trained well, by the Harts I believe. I’m sitting there looking at this little shit, thinking who the fuck is this guy in his little blue outfit? (Laughs) I made a mistake one time, the first time I saw Jeff Jarrett in Memphis in the locker room and I said (aloud) ‘Who the fuck is he related to?’ (laughs) The boys laughed, but I had a real good match with Jeff.

He (The Kid) comes up to me and says we have a match tonight and that we are going fifteen minutes and asks what are we going to do. Now when you are someone new and you come into someone else’s territory you don’t do shit like that. You should be asking what kind of match will we have tonight, and the veteran will take care of you.

Anyway, I told him to come off the top rope and get as much height as you can, and I’ll catch you. Anyway, I move out of the way and he hits as hard as hell. You should have seen the look on his face on the way by! I just started beating the shit out of him and putting the boots to him. He was gone the next day; he wasn’t made for Texas. I think the only reason he got where he did was, was that he was a funny mother fucker, that’s what I heard.”

I think you wrestled him a bit, Stan Lane.

“I think they are replaying a bit of this on ESPN Classics. I was a Midnight Express also. We worked an angle with Bobby (Eaton) Stan and me, and Bobby was out. Lane was just a funny mother fucker. I was plugged into a lot of tags, and I became as good as anybody.

You’ll get a kick out of this. The boys would say you see a room with a revolving door; Steve has that gimmick quarantined! Tag teaming was an art, you had to know when to have the referee cut off, work the hot tags; remember you have five people out there working! If you’ve never done that it can scare you.”

I have a few more for you, Doug Gilbert.

“You took care of him, because he was Eddie Gilbert’s little brother. I liked Doug, but he was no Eddie. He’s still out there working. You could slide him in, no harm, no foul.”

One more for you; Buff Bagwell.

“I knew him as the “Handsome Stranger”[xxviii] . (Skandor) Akbar had him kiss all the girls in the front row. He was just a pretty boy, and when he popped up like he did in Atlanta, I have to give him props.

You got to realize, I hung out with (Bruiser) Brody, Doc, Albright; I wasn’t used to hanging out with a guy like Buff! Guys like that…..Yeah, he was Buff out there (in the ring) but in here (locker room) you’re just a paper tiger. That was like Hogan, but again, props to Hogan, nobody could draw like he could. But, yeah, Buff as the Handsome Stranger did well at the Sportatorium[xxix] out there on “Skank Row”.”

One final question, do you watch wrestling now?

“I do, when I can. Now CM Punk and John Cena, you’ve got to me kidding me. Is this the best you got? Don’t get me wrong, but if this is the best you got, but these guys ain’t Brody. These guys would get destroyed in my day. When you watch the work today, it’s so light. It’s too make believe; too much entertainment. In my day, you believed you were getting your ass kicked, because you actually were.”

Thanks Steve!

---

[i]And I am only talking about what I can print!

[ii]Cox was selected in the 16^th Round in 1983

[iii]Fairbanks was a successful collegiate coach who won the Orange Bowl and two Sugar Bowls with Oklahoma. The job with New Jersey would be his last as a coach in football.

[iv]Michigan was the inaugural USFL Champions.

[v]Sting’s first big break was in the UWF territory which had a large base in Oklahoma

[vi]Watts was the owner of the UWF, and notoriously known for his toughness.

[vii]George was a journeyman wrestler who held multiple regional championships in the United States but was an underneath worker at this stage of his career.

[viii]“Jabroni” is slang for someone who does the “job” in the ring. Basically; the one who loses on a regular basis.

[ix]The Memphis territory traditionally had smaller wrestlers in comparison.

[x]Devastation Incorporated was the heel stable that was managed by Skandor Akbar.

[xi]The Oklahoma Stampede was Steve Williams’ finisher which was a powerslam preceded by a run in a slam position to the turnbuckle

[xii]“Marriage” in wrestling, means that two opponents were booked against each other on a regular basis.

[xiii]I have heard that often from my friend, Chavo Guerrero Sr.; or as he says “seen one, seen them all”.

[xiv]Watts would sell his territory to the NWA, and “merge” with them, though it was unknown to his wrestlers at the time.

[xv]This isn’t a metaphor; this was about actually lacing up boots.

[xvi]Sting and the Ultimate Warrior were a tag team called the Blade Runners that got their start working for Bill Watts. The Warrior left for World Class in Texas.

[xvii]Rhodes was the booker of the NWA at the time

[xviii]Brown was an icon in Central States Wrestling.

[xix]This was the Samoan incarnation of Samu and Fatu.

[xx]Fritz Von Erich was the owner of WCCW. The World Class area was drawing huge a few years previous with Fritz’s sons.

[xxi]This would have been in the early 90’s.

[xxii]This is in reference to the Global Wrestling Federation which was based in Dallas. They had a brief contract with ESPN.

[xxiii]Albright was a star in Japan, but never achieved mainstream success in North America; of course, he never seemed to try.

[xxiv]The UWFI was a shoot style promotion which was a precursor to UFC, but the match results were still pre-determined.

[xxv]Gaijins is the word for foreigner in Japanese

[xxvi]As if this writing, Scott Hall has been doing very well, and credits a lot of that to Diamond Dallas Page. Hopefully, this continues.

[xxvii]Ribera’s is a steak house in Tokyo where wrestlers frequent. It is considered a badge of honor for an American wrestler to set foot in Ribera’s and get once of their famous jackets. It is definitely a “wrestling” thing!

[xxviii]This was Bagwell’s gimmick in the GWF where he wrestled alongside Cox.

[xxix]The Sportatorium was the facility that was the home base of the GWF and previously World Class in Dallas.