Hall of Fame Debates (95)
Tony Dungy: 2015 HOF Finalist
Jan 29, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
Next, I take a look at former Head Coach, Tony Dungy.
Dungy has been a Finalist before for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and as a former Super Bowl winning Coach this shouldn’t be a surprise. Dungy coached for thirteen years in the NFL with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the Indianapolis Colts and for eleven of those seasons he took his team to the Playoffs and would win it all in 2006 with the Colts.
Dungy’s overall regular season record of 136 and 69 is one of the best and he has long been highly regarded as one of the best and most popular coaches in recent memory. He has been revered for his calm teaching style and is one that many other coaches have openly looked to emulate.
He has also been known for giving back to the NFL after his career as a coach was over, assisting Michael Vick in getting back into the NFL, his philanthropic and community involvement is legendary. He has parlayed that likability factor into a successful analyst career with NBC.
There are however valid criticisms, and Dungy may not have done himself Hall of Fame favors when he openly decreed that he would not have drafted Michael Sam, citing his sexuality as a distraction. Also, Dungy did win a Super Bowl in Indianapolis, but it was Jon Gruden who took his previous team to the promised land. One Super Bowl may not cut it.
Recognizing that, if one of the three coaches (Dungy, Don Coryell and Jimmy Johnson) Dungy is the one who will probably get in…and probably this year, not that I would personally put him in right now, behind the other two.
John Lynch: 2015 HOF Finalist
Jan 28, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
Next, I take a look at former Safety, John Lynch.
Lynch is a Finalist for the second year in a row, but pure Safeties only number eight in Canton, the last being in 1998 when Paul Krause got in, who is still the all time leader in Interceptions. Lynch only has 26, significantly lower than Krause (81), but that was not why he was chosen for nine Pro Bowls and two First Team All Pro squads.
The former Tampa Bay Buccaneer and Denver Bronco was considered to be one of the most ferocious hitters in the NFL and he put the fear of God in open Wide Receivers. Lynch was named the Defensive Back of the Year by the NFL Alumni in 2000 and in 2003 was a major part of the defensive effort that decimated the Oakland Raiders in the Super Bowl.
That defense has already seen two players go to the Hall of Fame (Warren Sapp & Derrick Brooks) and could see another when Ronde Barber is eligible. Lynch was a big part of that effort, but will Canton see fit to pit in a third and a fourth from that D?
We have talked about character and the Hall of Fame, and if that were the main prerequisite, Lynch’s head would be measured for that bust right now. He is a former winner of both the Bart Starr and Whizzer White Man of the Year and was known throughout the NFL for being a genuinely nice guy, but that is not what this should be all about.
As for me, I am not yet convinced that the third Buccaneer Super Bowl winner enshrined in Canton shouldn’t be Barber, and I am on the side of the fence that does not see him get in. My wager is that is how it will play out this year too.
Junior Seau: 2015 HOF Finalist
Jan 27, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
Next, I take a look at former Linebacker, Junior Seau.
When Seau retired, virtually every football fan and journalist pegged him as a surefire first ballot inductee and why not? Seau was regarded for many years as the top Linebacker in the National Football League, and has the trophies to prove it.
The former linebacker was the consensus Defensive MVP in 1992, a twelve time Pro Bowler, a six time First Team All Pro Selection, a member of the 1990’s All Decade Team and the NFL Alumni Linebacker of the Year in 2003. Stat wise, he has 56.5 Quarterback Sacks, 18 Interceptions and 1,849 Tackles over a twenty year career. He has suited in the second most games of any Linebacker.
It can be criticized that Junior Seau never won the Super Bowl, though he has been to two, the first with the San Diego Chargers where he was a major reason they got as far as they did in the first place. It should also be noted that Seau also won the Walter Payton Man of the Year, an accolade showing his charitable work.
Perhaps that is why his suicide caught all of us by surprise when he committed suicide as we all thought he was such a happy well adjusted man who loved life. We did not know about the concussion related injuries and depression that he had about no longer being a football player and the other issues he had.
While the Pro Football Hall of Fame has posthumously inducted players in the past, there has never been one before where people have pointed at the injuries suffered at the gridiron as a possible cause to his death.
This should not keep him out, but it does raise the question of the costs of playing football are, and though Seau should be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, and should go in immediately, there will be articles written about the cost of playing the game.
Could that prevent him from getting in? If it was a player with less accolades that could happen, but this is a player who was one of the best Defensive players ever, so it is not only likely to happen, he will get in on the first ballot.
Anything else is criminal.
Jerome Bettis: 2015 HOF Finalist
Jan 26, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
Next, I take a look at former Running Back, Jerome Bettis.
This is “The Bus’s” fifth consecutive year as a Hall of Finalist, but this year seems different, as there are not as many obstacles in his way. There had been higher profile Running Backs ahead of him in the past, and while Terrell Davis is also a Finalist, based on previous voting patterns, it stands to reason that he is behind him in line. Bettis also made it to the final ten last year showing that he is very close to the door.
He should be. Amassing 13,662 Rushing Yards and 91 Touchdowns over his career, the popular Running Back is considered one of the best “big” backs ever and statistically he is among the elite. Bettis has six Pro Bowls and two First Team All Pro selections to his credit, and in 1996 he won the NFL Alumni Running Back of the Year, indicating that there was a sizable segment that considered him the best at one point in his career.
Character (good or bad) should not really be a factor in getting into the Hall of Fame, but who are we kidding? Where it hurts Charles Haley, it helps Jerome Bettis, a former Walter Payton Man of the Year Award (2001), and was also named the PFWA Good Guy Award in 2005. Through broadcasting, Bettis remains in the public eye and still has a high level of respect within the community.
Bettis would win a Super Bowl Ring in his final season in the NFL, but he was largely ineffective and almost cost the team the game, so that is not exactly a selling point.
Personally, I have always viewed Jerome Bettis as a marginal Hall of Fame talent, but one if he got in would not bother me, and if he never got in would be fine also. Saying that, this is his year, and all signs are for the bus to make a final stop in Northern Ohio.
Terrell Davis: 2015 HOF Finalist
Jan 25, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
Next, I take a look at former Running Back, Terrell Davis.
For the first time in eight years, Terrell Davis has made it to the Final Round, a feat inconceivable four years into his career when he had just completed a three year stint as the best Running Back in the National Football League.
Those first four seasons were among the most impressive by any Running Back in NFL history. Davis would win the Rushing Title in 1998 and would lead the league in Rushing Touchdowns twice in 1997 and 1998, and is one of the rare people to rush for 2,000 Yards in a NFL season. More importantly, Davis would be a featured performer taking the Denver Broncos to two consecutive Super Bowls, where he would be named the MVP of his first one, and was the MVP of the NFL in the regular season the year after.
So what happened?
Like so many professional athletes, Terrell Davis succumbed to injuries way to early in his career and in his final three seasons only saw the Running Back play 17 Games. He just wasn’t the same player and there are many who look at Hall of Fame players for Canton and expect that they should have longer careers than only seven NFL campaigns.
While I can understand that sentiment, a very important fact remains is that Davis WAS at one point the undisputed best Running Back in the NFL and not just for a moment. That reality makes him a bona fide contender for the Hall of Fame and despite the brevity of his career makes him someone that I would personally vote for, champion for and induct into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Saying that, will he get in?
Not this year, as the patterns we have seen have shown as that those who have “toiled” in the Semis and eventually make it to the Finals never get into the Hall of Fame the year they finally break through.
Although this is very unlikely to be the year that Davis breaks through…well, we can hope can’t we? I am sure that there are many in the state of Colorado thinking the same thing.
Mick Tingelhoff: 2015 HOF Finalist
Jan 25, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
Next, I take a look at former Center, Mick Tingelhoff.
Tingelhoff is part of all four Minnesota Vikings teams in the 1970’s that made it to the Super Bowl, though failed to win the big one. Saying that, while he was still regarded as an above average Center in the National Football League, it was in the 1960’s that he was an elite performer.
That decade, Tingelhoff went to six Pro Bowls, five of which saw him named as a First Team All Pro Selection. His overall durability saw him play 240 consecutive games, all of which as a starter, a mark that at the time of his retirement placed him second overall.
Tingelhoff, who is already in the Minnesota Vikings Ring of Honor and has had his number retired by the organization, has long been a player that Vikings fans have been clamoring for to enter the Hall of Fame, and history shows that they will likely get what they want.
Over 65 percent of past Senior Candidates have gotten in, and now with their being only one on the ballot, many, including us think that Tingelhoff will no longer be on the outside looking in, which is how it should have been for years.
Will Shields: 2015 HOF Finalist
Jan 24, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
Next, I take a look at former Offensive Guard, Will Shields.
This is Shields fourth consecutive year as a Finalist, which is also his fourth on the ballot. The Right Guard started 223 of his 224 Games Played and of his fourteen seasons, he was a Pro Bowl Selection for twelve of them, not to mention a First Team All Pro Selection twice.
A consistent player, Shields was the steadying force in what was predominantly one of the better Offensive Lines in the NFL and was rarely beat, much to the delight of the his Quarterbacks, Elvis Grbac and Trent Green who both had 4,000 Yard Passing seasons.
What has kept Shields out thus far is the high amount of Offensive Linemen who have been eligible at the same time, and this year is no exception with Orlando Pace and Senior Candidate Mick Tingelhoff, the latter of which has a great chance of getting in based on the recent frequency in which Senior Candidates have been getting inducted.
Saying that, I think he will get in (and should) this year, but if he is passed over again, the former Kansas City Chief won’t wait long.
Jimmy Johnson: 2015 HOF Finalist
Jan 23, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
Next, I take a look at former Head Coach, Jimmy Johnson.
The former Dallas Cowboy and Miami Dolphin Head Coach has been eligible for the Pro Football Hall of Fame for over a decade but this is the first time he made this far. The initial question might be why, but it appears that longevity would have to be the answer.
Johnson would only coach for nine seasons and his 80 and 64 record is well below a lot of other Head Coach’s winning percentage is not in line with others in Canton. That is something that probably should not matter, but having a win total well under 100 has to be something that has prevented him getting him this far until now.
Now that being true, he does have three major things going for him, and two of them are Super Bowl Rings. You pay coaches to win the big one, and his record is skewed a lot from that 1 and 15 inaugural season in Dallas, but ask Cowboys fans if they care about that now? They don’t and nor should they based on what he built.
What also works in his favor is that Johnson was the architect of putting together the team (he was the head of all those decisions) and through drafts and the brilliant trade of Herschel Walker that netted him a plethora of draft picks, he built a mini-dynasty that would win another Super Bowl under Barry Switzer that largely was due to the personnel decisions by Johnson.
Perhaps the best comparison is John Madden, who like Johnson had a relatively similar career with ten seasons as the Raiders Head Coach and one Super Bowl win, though his regular season record was much better (100-32-7), though wouldn’t he heave traded some wins for a second Super Bowl? Also, both remained largely in the public eye with their broadcasting career, and make no mistake, that does subconsciously play into the minds of many voters.
For me, the most important thing is the two Super Bowl Bowls, and arguably an assist on the third, which in my mind makes him not only a Pro Football Hall of Fame Finalist, but an inductee as well, and he should have been a Finalist long ago.
If it was up to me he will get in this year, but he won’t. Tony Dungy will likely get that spot instead.
Marvin Harrison: 2015 HOF Debate
Jan 21, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
Next, I take a look at former Wide Receiver, Marvin Harrison.
The biggest shock last year was that Marvin Harrison did not get in last year on his first year of eligibility, as stat wise he was the most accomplished of the Wide Receivers on the ballot. Harrison caught 1,102 passes for 14,580 Yards and 128 Touchdowns, career numbers that fit the resume of a Hall of Fame caliber player, even in this inflated era. He would twice lead the NFL in Receiving Yards, would three times be named a First Team All Pro three times and also was once named the NFL Alumni Wide Receiver of the Year.
Those accolades show that not only did Marvin Harrison have the durability, he had a claim at one point as the top Wide Receiver in the game, a “two for two” in what should make a player a Hall of Fame lock.
So what kept him out last year?
Harrison has had shooting incidents, a couple of which attached to drugs and drug dealers. Now, it needs to be stated that Marvin Harrison was never convicted on any charge, but it is a stigma that has followed him, as has the fact that he was not always the most cooperative with the media.
Still, as stated many times in this site, character should not be a factor (unless there is something far more serious) should not keep a man out of the Hall of Fame, and Harrison has every necessary gridiron credential.
My prediction is that the former Indianapolis Colt gets in this year, and he really should not have to wait another year. It’s already been too long.
Charles Haley: 2015 HOF Finalist
Jan 20, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
Next, I take a look at former Defensive End and Linebacker, Charles Haley.
This is the sixth consecutive year that Charles Haley has been named a Hall of Fame Finalist, and every single time that someone extolls the virtues of Haley for enshrinement they point to the same thing every single time:
Five Super Bowl Rings.
And why shouldn’t they do mention that fact over and over again? There is no player who ever competed in the National Football League who can make that claim, and why else do you play the game if it isn’t to become a champion? Haley wasn’t just a bystander, he was a pivotal figure in these championship teams with both the Dallas Cowboys and San Francisco 49ers and is one of the few players who has over 100 Quarterback Sacks (100.5). That is the most important stat, and one you can’t not mention when looking at Haley’s Hall of Fame credentials.
Haley was also someone who had successful seasons at both Defensive End and at Linebacker, and went to the Pro Bowl and had First Team All Pro Selections at both positions, overall accumulating two First Team nods and five Pro Bowl selections, which again are decent numbers, though we have seen many other defensive players with five Pro Bowls who really have not come close to getting into Canton, though that is not what many think has kept him out so far.
As much as you would hear John Madden wax poetic about his skills on Sundays, you would equally hear about character issues that Haley had. The defensive standout, who would later be diagnosed as bipolar, was absolutely detested by the media and though that should not be a factor for Hall of Fame voting, it is voted on by humans who mostly have interacted with the people they vote on. The human factor plays a part, right or wrong.
It is not that he also did not ruffle teammates the wrong way as he famously had to be restrained from attacking Quarterback, Steve Young following a loss to the Oakland Raiders and this was not an isolated incident.
Still, there have been many past teammates, namely Troy Aikman and his former coach, Jimmy Johnson who have been vocal advocates of Haley getting into the Hall. That kind of support has to help though as much as he has become a finalist over and over, there never seemed to be any year where it felt that he was going to get over that hump.
This year doesn’t feel that much different either and it wouldn’t surprise me to see him fall short again.
Kevin Greene: 2015 HOF Finalist
Jan 18, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
Next, I take a look at former Linebacker, Kevin Greene.
The Quarterback Sack is the sexiest defensive statistic in Football, and though the Interception is a far bigger game changer, the Sack defines the game. Despite the changing of the rules designed to protect the Quarterback, it remains an exciting play and the most coveting thing a Linebacker can get.
Kevin Greene recorded 160 of them.
Although the sack statistic is certainly aided by schemes and surrounding personnel, it is an impressive accomplishment and one that places him third overall behind Bruce Smith and Reggie White, both of whom were inducted into the Hall of Fame. Greene is also a two time leader in that category leading the National Football League in that stat in 1996 and 1998, the latter of which when he was 34 years old.
This bears mentioning, as though he was recording multiple sacks in his 20’s, he was a more complete player in his 30’s and it was this decade of his life where he was also recognized as one of the top defensive players of his time. Greene would be named the NEA Defensive Player of the Year in 1996, and would also be named the NFL Alumni Linebacker of the Year.
Greene would also be named to five Pro Bowls, two First Team All Pro nods and was also named to the 1990’s All Decade team, decent numbers and though many other Defensive players have been named to more Pro Bowls and All Pro squads, he wasn’t that far off from consideration in his early years.
Entering his fourth consecutive year as a Finalist, Kevin Greene again is not the highest profile Linebacker left and could easily be pushed aside for Junior Seau, and frankly if it comes down to picking only one Linebacker, it should be Seau, though Greene remains the top pass rusher on the ballot, a fact aided by Michael Strahan’s induction last year.
That is another factor that works against him, as he doesn’t have the same star quotient those other defensive players who got in recently, namely Strahan and Warren Sapp who got in the year before.
That shouldn’t matter, but though he did become a more balanced player later in his career, he is measuring up against others that were.
Kevin Greene should eventually get into the Hall of Fame, and probably should. Personally, the more I look at his career, the more I am swaying towards inducting him, as originally, I felt he was a bit too one dimensional. I will revert back to the word “eventually” because I don’t think he is getting in this year, but he won’t have to wait much longer.
Tim Brown: 2015 HOF Finalist
Jan 17, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
Next, I take a look at former Wide Receiver/Returner, Tim Brown.
Tim Brown first became eligible for the Football Hall of Fame in 2010, and was named a Finalist that year, and has been every year since. Brown has some substantial Hall of Fame credentials but has been caught in a logjam of more deserving Wide Receivers namely Cris Carter and Andre Reed who had a bit of a wait themselves.
Again, Brown is not the highest regarded Wide Receiver who made the Finals as Marvin Harrison, who personally I was shocked when he was not a first ballot inductee last year, did not get in. Last year, when the Hall of Fame reduced from fifteen to ten names, Harrison made the final ten, and Brown did not, indicating that he is still not on the top of the wideout pecking order.
This is not to say that he is not a Hall of Famer caliber player, because he does have a lot on his resume. What he lacks in First Team All Pro Selections (he has none) and Super Bowl Rings, he makes up for in Pro Bowl selections (nine) and Special Teams credentials.
Brown’s first Pro Bowl was as a Special Team selection and in that rookie campaign he would lead the NFL in Kick Return Yards. He would later lead the NFL in Punt Return Yards in 1994 and overall would contribute a total of 4,555 Return Yards and 4 Touchdowns; a mark that no other Wide Receiver can state.
Does that matter?
It should, but as we know, the Pro Football Hall of Fame never has put a lot of premium on Special Teams players, so why should we expect that they will care about a Special Team “add on” to a Wide Receiver career?
Perhaps that is the problem, as Tim Brown’s Wide Receiving was decent, he was never ever considered among the top two in his position, and if he ever was at any given time, he could at least cling to that.
That does matter, as being considered an elite performer at an offensive skill position he would probably be indicted already. Just one season, in addition to his career statistical accomplishments would have made him impossible to overlook by this point.
Even with the inflated statistics that exist within Wide Receivers at this time, Tim Brown is still in the top five in Receptions and Receiving Yards and while he was able to successfully to climb the all time stat ladder, he still did so in an era where he had a lot of competition.
With his additional dimensions on Special Teams and his accumulated totals on Offense, he would receive my vote, and has waited long enough.
Saying that, I don’t think he will get the call this year either.
Don Coryell: 2015 HOF Finalist
Jan 17, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
Next, I take a look at former Head Coach, Don Coryell.
This is actually the easiest debate as the Hall of Fame case for Don Coryell always comes down to the same question: Innovation Vs Success.
Seriously, it is that simple.
Coryell was dubbed “Air Coryell” for a putting a higher premium on the passing game, and creating a unique rhythm forcing defenses to cover all parts of the field. Tight Ends, Running Backs would go in motion, Receivers had no set start point, and the ball would be going to the target before the receiver would get there. Coryell made deep routes a major part of his offense and altered the way Tight Ends were played, making them a bigger part of offensive targets. All of this is commonplace today but this was not happening before Coryell literally changed the way the game was played.
He would begin this revolution with the St. Louis Cardinals where he would win two consecutive division titles, but it was in San Diego where he had the Quarterback he wanted (Dan Fouts) that he was really able to bring his vision to light. His Chargers would win the division three times and would lead the National Football League in passing six consecutive seasons, which remains a record today.
That’s the positive side of the Hall of Fame ledger, which has been enough to keep him on the ballot for a few years now; here is the negative.
Coryell did take his teams to the playoffs often but only has a 3 and 6 record and does not have any Super Bowl rings, generally a prerequisite for a Hall of Fame induction. His regular season record is 111-83-1, which is decent, but is not spectacular.
However, the biggest and fairest criticism of Don Coryell was his lack of attention to defense, and even past Defensive Coordinators would state that he had limited interest in that side of the ball. That did show in the teams he coached, as they were routinely on the bottom half of points and yards allowed.
So there you have it. The ultimate case of innovation Vs Accomplishment.
Personally, I am all about innovation, though my glasses are tainted somewhat by looking at other Halls of Fame and how they induct players/musicians and when you are a game changer, I believe you should get in.
Will he this year?
Probably not.
Morten Andersen: 2015 HOF Finalist
Jan 15, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
Next, I take a look at former Place Kicker, Morten Andersen.
I have to admit I was surprised that Morten Andersen was a Hall of Fame Finalist last year. It isn’t that there are not some serious Canton worthy credentials, he does, but since it’s inception the frequency in which they have elected Special Teams players has not exactly been regular.
Punter, Ray Guy had a long wait to get into the Hall, and had to wait until he was a Senior Nominee before he finally got the Hall; this despite being regarded by every football pundit as the greatest Punter in the history of the game. It has been a little easier for Place Kickers…but not much.
There are players in the Pro Football Hall of Fame who have a significant amount of PATs and Field Goals made but these were players (George Blanda for example) that had a significant amount of playing time at other positions. The only full time Kicker in Canton is Norwegian born, Jan Stenerud, so would not seem somewhat fitting that a fellow Scandinavian (Andersen was born in Denmark) join him?
Andersen is currently the all-time leading scorer in NFL history and is 398 Points ahead of the 42 year old Adam Vinatieri, and if he can’t catch him, he will hold that record for a considerable amount of time. Normally, the leading scorer in any sport would be a lock for a Hall of Fame, but American Football doesn’t work that way, so that by no means makes him a lock.
The “Great Dane” also is the all-time leader in Games Played, and consecutive Games Played and Field Goals Made and is also the all-time leader for both the New Orleans Saints and the Atlanta Falcons. In addition, Andersen went to seven Pro Bowls and made three First Team All Pro squads.
Adam Vinatieri had that signature moment when he kicked a forty-five yard Field Goal in the snow to tie a 2002 playoff game against the Oakland Raiders (the infamous “Tuck Rule” Game) and a much shorter one to win the game. Vinatieri would also kick the game winning in that year’s Super Bowl, and instantly he became the most famous Place Kicker in the NFL and actually received endorsements, unheard for a Kicker.
Andersen himself had a signature playoff moment while playing for the Atlanta Falcons when his 38 Yard overtime Field Goal in 1999 took Atlanta to the Super Bowl, though unlike Vinatieri, his team was not able to capitalize on the big one.
Should the fact that Morten Andersen never won a Super Bowl keep him out of the Hall of Fame? Not at all, Andersen did what was required of him in clutch situations, which is all you can ask of your clutch kicker, but it does make Vinatieri a sexier candidate, and if Andersen is still lingering on the ballot, he could be overlapped.
Saying that I don’t think that Andersen will still be there, but I don’t think that he is getting in this year, though I do predict he will eventually be the second pure Place Kicker in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Orlando Pace: 2015 HOF Finalist
Jan 13, 2015
Written by
Committee Chairman
Having a lot of fun doing our Baseball debates with two of my bloggers, DDT and the Phillies Archivist, I wanted to repeat the same idea with this year’s Football Finalists, but due to time constraints I will take a deeper look at each candidate myself and offer a few thoughts as to their Hall of Fame candidacy
First up, I take a look at former Offensive Tackle, Orlando Pace.
You had to know that the St. Louis Rams “Greatest Show on Turf” team was going to have multiple names make this year’s finalists. Along with Kurt Warner, Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt, Pace was one of four members of the Super Bowl XXXIV Championship team that became eligible all in the same year. Personally, I thought that either Bruce or Holt would join Warner and Pace, but perhaps those deciding the fate of the Finalists thought that two Rams were sufficient or maybe Bruce and Holt cancelled each other out.
That aside, when you talk about those great Rams teams, the names of Warner, Marshall Faulk, Bruce and Holt received the press, as you would expect; skill positions always do, but would St. Louis have been as good without Orlando Pace helming the Offensive Line?
Protecting Warner and opening up gaping holes for Faulk, Pace gave the Rams exactly what they hoped for when they selected him first overall from Ohio State in 1997. In the twelve years that he played for the Rams, they had more gross yards than any other team in the National Football League and he blocked for three consecutive MVPs (Warner twice and Faulk once).
Legacy wise, Orlando Pace is regarded as one of the three Left Tackles of his era who were considered among the elite; the others being Walter Jones and Jonathan Ogden, both of whom just entered the Hall of Fame, leading to a lot of reason to think that Pace should be able to follow them both into Canton.
Trophy wise, Pace has what you want for a Hall of Fame candidate. His resume brings three First Team All Pro Selections, seven Pro Bowls, a selection to the NFL All Decade Team (2000’s), the 2008 Ed Block Courage Award and of course that Super Bowl Ring.
So what works against him?
Well much like Harrison and Holt may have had a cancelling of each other out, it is possible that the same could happen for Pace and Warner, or that the committee may wish to only one put St. Louis Ram in. There is no urgency to induct either one of them, and with all due respect to Warner and Pace, there will not be that large of an uproar if either of them do not get in on the first ballot.
What also may play against him is Will Shields, who although played on a different position on the Offensive Line (Right Guard), but nevertheless there is an O-Lineman, and with limited spots available, Shields, who has been a Finalist already for the past three years might get the nod. Also, Senior Candidate, Mick Tingelhoff, is a Center, and Senior Candidates have had a better than 60 percent chance once they make this round.
So would I cast a vote for Orlando Pace? Yes, and I do think there is a very good chance that he will get in on his first try, but if he fails I don’t see him waiting a very long time. I will go on record that I would prefer for him to be first Ram Super Bowl winner over Warner and for the sake of what might be a perceived St. Louis log jam (never underestimate how voters think about things like that), I sincerely hope one of them does, to ease a path for Holt or Bruce, both of which who are deserving of at least an extended look as a Finalist.
Saying that, I have a sneaky feeling that Warner will get the spot over Pace, and Shields might slide ahead. My official prediction is that the very deserving and Hall worthy Orlando Pace will enter Canton…but on the second try.
The Larry Walker Debate: 2015
Dec 31, 2014
Written by
Committee Chairman
This is the twenty-fourth and final of our series where we here at Notinhalloffame.com, do what else? Debate the merit of twenty-four men on the most loaded Baseball Hall of Fame ballot in our lifetime.
Joining me, the site's Committee Chairman, in this debate are D.K. of the site's Phillies Archivist blog and Darryl Tahirali of the site's DDT's Pop Flies blog. This looks to be a very important part of our site, and we hope you will enjoy reading this as much as we enjoyed writing it.
Chairman: Every single time the Baseball Hall of Fame and Larry Walker are in the same sentence together, most bloggers, writers, pundits and fans counter with two words: Coors Field. While I think there is some legitimacy to that argument, this is a guy who still put up good numbers in Montreal, had good numbers on he road while with Colorado, and by the way these are the same guys (the writers) who talked about the Coors effect and voted him the MVP of the National League in 1997. Walker is on the 5th ballot, and last year he had his lowest total yet with 10.2%. On the surface, this is not a path to Cooperstown.
D.K.: Walker was a .320 career hitter until late in his career. If he had played one more season instead of retiring at age 37 he would have reached the 400 HR plateau. (Like Mussina, he apparently wasn’t interested in establishing a statistical legacy). Walker had some years where his batting average, on base percentage and slugging percentage, plus those two last categories combined were absolutely Crazy Good! However, the voting writers choose to look on this as just an aberration of having Coors Field as his home park.
I think the writers should re-examine Walker’s career rather than just dismissing his numbers as being, the product of having a great park to hit in.
Walker’s inability to attract votes also looms like an ominous dark cloud over the future candidacy of the greatest Colorado Rockie of them all, Todd Helton!
Darryl: I've been writing about Larry Walker since my first article for this site, and in my 2013 ballot evaluation I went into detail about Walker and the "Coors Effect." First, Walker played less than 30 percent of all his games at Coors, and his last two seasons of his nine total were after the Colorado Rockies began storing baseballs in a humidor to neutralize the park's altitude effects. Prior to coming to Colorado, Walker played five full seasons in Montreal's Olympic Stadium, and in three of those seasons the stadium was considered to be a pitchers' park. When Walker won the NL MVP in 1997, he posted a .346/.443/.733 slash line on the road, and he actually slugged better on the road—his home slugging percentage was .709 while he slugged .733 on the road—and he hit 29 of his 49 home runs that year in ballparks other than Coors Field. In short, Larry Walker could hit anywhere, he was a five-tool player, and he ranks 10th all-time among all right fielders according to Jay Jaffe's JAWS system. The nine ahead of him are all Hall of Famers while Walker is ahead of Hall of Famers Paul Waner, Sam Crawford, Tony Gwynn, Dave Winfield . . . Every year I repeat myself on this. Not that it will help Walker. The writers won't elect him.
Chairman: We are all on the same page, beating that dead horse. Walker could conceivably fall off the ballot this year and hardly anyone would care. The numbers bear everything out, the Coors advantage was proven statistically not to be as big an impact on his overall career as people think, but again the writer’s just don’t care, and the ones that do don’t seem to have any impact. He is going to stay on the ballot just so that we have this same discussion every year.
D.K: Walker was indeed a 5-tool player as Darryl attests. He could field and had an excellent throwing arm to cut down runners or to make them not even think about trying to stretch those singles into doubles.
The advanced statistics systems that have come into vogue recently bear out what I had always felt in my gut - that Walker could hit no matter where he played or how challenging a park’s dimensions might be.
Here’s hoping he gets a larger share of votes this year. Up to this point he has been about the most underrated and underappreciated candidates in recent writers’ ballots history.
Darryl: I think Larry Walker is a bellwether for players whose home park was Coors Field, and his fate will have an impact on Todd Helton when he becomes eligible, although Helton played his entire career in Colorado and Walker did not. The larger issue is with the Hall having to come to terms with this condition, as it has had to do so with the designated hitter and relief pitching, but, really, park effects should not be an issue for the Hall. Hall of Famer Chuck Klein raked like a monster in his home park, Philadelphia's Baker Bowl, but was an average hitter elsewhere. Walker was excellent anywhere. And while this closing remark comes from the emotional side, as a Canadian, albeit one long-transplanted to the States, I want to see a guy from British Columbia in the Hall of Fame!
Chairman: It breaks my heart on a fictional vote to say no (he is my 11B) so I can only imagine how awful I would feel if I had a real ballot; and yes it hurts me more as a Canadian!
D.K.: Walker ranked tied with Jeff Kent for 11th - meaning those two are near-misses under the current system. - NO. These two get my vote if the writers had been successful in getting the rules changed to allow a maximum of 12 votes per writer instead of 10.
Darryl: This is one of my protest votes, along with those for Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, although in Larry Walker's case it was one of his home parks that was on steroids for a while, not he himself. I've been saying this for years: He is an effing Hall of Famer. My tenth and final Yes vote.
The Alan Trammell Debate: 2015
Dec 30, 2014
Written by
Committee Chairman
This is the twenty-third of our series where we here at Notinhalloffame.com, do what else? Debate the merit of twenty-four men on the most loaded Baseball Hall of Fame ballot in our lifetime.
Joining me, the site's Committee Chairman, in this debate are D.K. of the site's Phillies Archivist blog and Darryl Tahirali of the site's DDT's Pop Flies blog. This looks to be a very important part of our site, and we hope you will enjoy reading this as much as we enjoyed writing it.
Chairman: Alan Trammellis here on his fourteenth ballot, and based on the voting we have seen thus far, he will be on the ballot next year, fail, and have to look for a Veteran’s Committee induction. Trammell’s high water mark for voting was 36.8% two years ago and dropped back to 20.8% last year. I think we can all we agree that he is not getting in this year. What I want to ask both of you is should he.
D.K.: Alan Trammell is someone who has never really captured my imagination as being a potential Hall Of Famer. When he came up to the Tigers in 1977 (cup of coffee) & 1978 (first full season). I think his fielding skills were a little raw, but he worked on that aspect of the game and by the early or mid-1980s he was as smooth at that position as any active MLB shortstop. He would wind up winning four Gold Gloves.
While he’s not a favorite of mine I’d have to say that he has better stats than a lot of HOF middle infielders. With over 2,300 hits, a career batting average of .285 that includes seven .300 seasons, 1003 RBI, and 185 home runs, he probably ranks somewhere in the middle of the pack among shortstops who are currently in the Hall of Fame.
Darryl: Actually, DK, according to Jay Jaffe's WAR Score system (JAWS), Alan Trammell ranks 11th all-time among all shortstops and 8th all-time among the 21 shortstops already in the Hall of Fame; he is even ranked just ahead of Derek Jeter by JAWS although Jeter's total WAR value is about one and half wins better than Trammell's. None of which matters because the writers are not going to elect Trammell this year or next year, which will be his final year, and his fate is in the hands of a future Expansion Era Committee. So, Chairman, to answer your question: Yes, Alan Trammell is a Hall of Fame shortstop. He is better than shortstops Joe Tinker, Dave Bancroft, Hughie Jennings, Travis Jackson, Phil Rizzuto, and Rabbit Maranville, all of whom are already in the Hall of Fame.
Chairman: My thinking is more with Darryl on this one. I always thought he was one of the better Shortstops of all time, and maybe there is a bit of bias because when I first really to understand baseball, I was twelve years old and that was that dominant team Tigers team that won the World Series in 1984. Take Cal Ripken out of the picture (or let’s say he played third), Trammell adds a few All Star Games, and he might already be in as the consensus top Shortstop in the AL over that time period. Hell, we might be arguing Tony Fernandez instead!
I’ll say this, which is completely irrelevant. Somewhere around that time Trammell and Lou Whitaker also appeared on Magnum P.I., which also adds to the pop culture love for me…and yes that stuff matters far more to me than it should be.
Randomness aside, it looks like the Veteran Committee will have Trammell (and perhaps Lou Whitaker) on future ballot, and maybe he will get a shot then, because it won’t happen here.
D.K.: Alan Trammel’s candidacy evokes the question: Is there one Hall of Fame offensive standard for all players, or should voters follow separate standards for each position. Going by the former standard Trammel wouldn’t have much of a shot, but he becomes a valid, even a strong candidate if you judge him simply by how he’s performed compared to other shortstops. Defensively his reputation is solid and he’s bagged a quarry of Gold Glove Awards, but let’s examine his results as a hitter.
Trammel hit a solid .285 lifetime and enjoyed seven .300 seasons. He’d hit 12 to 15 home runs typically in his peak years, but reached 20 home runs twice, including a career high 28 one year. His final career total was 185 home runs. He’d drive in 60 to 75 runs just about every year in an eleven year peak period of 1980 to 1990. He finished with 1,003 ribbys.
He’d average better than a hit per game over his 20 year career that ended in 1996, with 2365 hits in 2293 games.
He had one off the charts season in 1987 where he and Darrell Evans led the Tigers to an A.L. East championship. Trammel’s numbers that year were 28 home runs, 105 RBI this only 100 RBI season) and a .343 batting average - all career bests! He wasn’t able to maintain that pace, but he did add three more .300 seasons after ‘87.
In a typical election year Trammel probably gets my vote, because his numbers are better than most HOF shortstops. This year however, is anything but typical and I can see four or five candidates being elected come January 6. It’s an awfully strong field and Trammel probably won’t make it into most writers’ top ten - the maximum number of candidates each writer can vote for. He falls short of my top ten as well. That doesn’t mean that I don’t support his HOF candidacy in the long run, however.
If the logjam of candidates is eased by the election of a number of players this year then Trammel will have my vote in the 2016 election, his final year on the writers ballot. My guess is that Trammel will make it to the Hall of Fame by way of the Veterans Committee in the not-too-distant future.
Darryl: D.K., I would hope that voters are considering positional scarcity in their selections, and I think that they have been, even historically. Ray Schalk, albeit a veterans committee selection in 1955, was voted in based overwhelmingly on his defensive play as a catcher. (Schalk has the dubious distinction of having an on-base percentage higher than his slugging percentage, .340 to .316, and although I'm too lazy to look it up, I suspect that Schalk's 11 home runs are the fewest hit by a position player in the Hall of Fame. But I digress. More relevant to our discussion here, shortstops Rabbit
Maranville and Ozzie Smith were both voted in by the writers, and both are much better known for their defensive abilities rather than their offensive ones; their respective elections may indicate the evolution of thinking: Maranville was elected on his final ballot in 1954 while Ozzie was a first-ballot inductee in 2002. I swear I've read somewhere recently that if Alan Trammell could have done backflips, he'd already be in the Hall. So, I'm saying it again.
As for Lou Whitaker, I noted his unfair one-and-done in my very first column for the site. He and Bobby Grich are two second basemen who deserve a strong second look. And if there is any justice in a future Expansion Era Committee, both Trammell and Whitaker will be elected in the same year.
Chairman: I want to vote for Alan, but in this ballot I have to say no. I hope he gets a real fair look from the Veterans Committee.
D.K.: Tied for 15th with Don Mattingly - and like Mattingly his HOF fate will soon be decided by the Veterans Committee. For Trammel and Mattingly to be elected in the future it will take a more enlightened group of voters than the vets committee that just rejected Minoso, Hodges, Oliva, Kaat, Wills and Allen last week.
Darryl: No. Alan Trammell is a SABR darling who does not have the Hall of Fame aura. I think he belongs in the Hall, but this is triage time--we need to clear the ballot by electing viable candidates. I hate to put so callously, but you don't water a dying flower. Trammell's viability on this ballot is as healthy as an orchid in the middle of the Sahara. May the Expansion Era Committee who gets to vote him in do so swiftly and mercifully, but the writers ain't gonna do it. Damn.
The Sammy Sosa Debate: 2015
Dec 29, 2014
Written by
Committee Chairman
This is the twenty-second of our series where we here at Notinhalloffame.com, do what else? Debate the merit of twenty-four men on the most loaded Baseball Hall of Fame ballot in our lifetime.
Joining me, the site's Committee Chairman, in this debate are D.K. of the site's Phillies Archivist blog and Darryl Tahirali of the site's DDT's Pop Flies blog. This looks to be a very important part of our site, and we hope you will enjoy reading this as much as we enjoyed writing it.
Chairman: I think I want to coin a verb: Palmeiro. As in Sammy Sosa is in his third year of eligibility slumping to only 7.5% last year who is about to be “Palmeiroed” off of the ballot despite having great numbers though associated with a syringe. How about another verb: Sosa. As in my bilingual friend travelled to Mexico but was “Sosaing” so that he could pretend not understand Spanish. Seriously, I remember his complete lack of English recall on Congress more than any of the 600 plus Home Runs he hit.
D.K.: With his charging out to the field to start games at Wrigley field and his throwing cups of water in his face he was a more entertaining version of Mark McGwire and he probably share McGwire's fate of being ignored by writers.
His 609 career home runs is a HOF-like number, but at what point did he start using PEDs and how much did they help his career. Sammy pleads “No intende Ingles” on that one.
Darryl: Sammy Sosa is the only man in major-league history to hit 60 or more home runs in a season three times, and yet he never led his league in home runs in those seasons. That seems to sum up Sosa's career: Splashy highlights that ultimately appear less consequential than they seemed initially. Chairman and DK, you think of Sosa and think of "I no speaka da Ingles." When I think of Sosa, I think of him striking out with runners on base early in a Cubs game, trying to knock a three-run homer, and then hitting a solo homer later in the game, when it is inconsequential, with Sosa hopping out of the batter's box in his self-aggrandizing manner, having now hit a home run that makes his individual numbers look good but doesn't help his team. It is that as much as the PEDs allegations that makes Sosa's numbers look cheap.
Chairman: Perfect synopsis Darryl. Sammy Sosa is the “Big Empty”. His hollow stats are matched by that hollow character. There were a few within the media who were saying for years that Sosa was a great guy when the lights were on, but an asshole once the lights were off. I know we talked about character not mattering, but I always remember what was reported by multiple sources upon Sosa’s demise in Chicago. He was always playing his stereo loud in the clubhouse to the point where it dominated the audio under Wrigley. On that final day as a Cub when he bailed early (later denying yet proven to do so by videotape) a Cubs player took a baseball bat to that stereo. As we know, Sammy was an Oriole the year after.
This is where I feel character does matter on a ledger. Sammy was not a team guy and was an individual statistical slut. I will never question his talent, but his ethics. Give me a Bonds or a Sheffield over this guy any day. You will never have to guess where you stand.
D.K.: It’s been almost a decade since the public watched that news clip of
Sammy Sosa feigning that he didn’t understand questions directed at him by
congressmen back in March 2005.
One thing it showed was that Sosa could be dishonest when it suited his purposes - and that almost certainly extended to PED use over a prolonged period of time to give him an unfair advantage over his contemporaries.
I still applauded his accomplishments when he was already under suspicion and in one instance I even forgave him temporarily and rejoiced when I saw him hit his 600th home run live - courtesy of ESPN. This was long after his congressional fiasco. He still had that winning personality that made you want to be in his corner.
Some journalists have speculated that one day there will be a relenting on the part of the writers who withhold votes from Sosa and the rest of the PED crowd. The key word in that sentence is “Speculated or its root Speculation”. This may occur decades from now, but it’s not going to help Sosa in 2015 and he might even fail to snare 5% of the vote causing him to slide right off the ballot. In that event, as long as Sosa is not disqualified and banned by MLB his career could be similar to another Chicago legend, Billy Pierce. The great little lefty only lasted a couple of years before the writers before not getting enough votes to stay on the ballot. This didn’t exclude him, however from future Veterans Committee consideration and he was a final ten candidate at the Golden Era election earlier this month. Decades from now, Sosa may be in the same situation with his candidacy brought back from the dead and a new generation of writers, historians and even players that make up a future Veterans Committee in a more forgiving mood than the voting writers of present-day America. That will be his only remaining chance at Cooperstown should he fail to get 5% of the votes a few weeks from now.
Darryl: I remember when Sosa "docked a day's pay" for skipping work, and the penalty amounted to something like $80,000. That is more than most of us make in year. Sammy Sosa has become the poster boy for something that the anti-PEDs crusaders are trying to get at, and that is this: Is it possible for a player to put up Hall of Fame numbers but not be a Hall of Famer? The PEDs issue makes that easy because you can say the numbers are artificially inflated through cheating (although near-comparable numbers were put up by players thought to be clean, so there is more it than that), and I realize that if you lean too heavily on the "sportsmanship" and "integrity" aspects of the eligibility statement that you start to veer into "Hall of Morality" territory, but the more I write about Sosa, the harder it is to claim that he is a Hall-worthy player.
Chairman: I am voting no. Can someone translate that to Sammy please?
D.K.: He was charismatic and entertaining, but for many of the same reasons I couldn’t vote for McGwire I can’t vote for Sosa. - NO.
Darryl: No.
The John Smoltz Debate: 2015
Dec 29, 2014
Written by
Committee Chairman
This is the twenty-first of our series where we here at Notinhalloffame.com, do what else? Debate the merit of twenty-four men on the most loaded Baseball Hall of Fame ballot in our lifetime.
Joining me, the site's Committee Chairman, in this debate are D.K. of the site's Phillies Archivist blog and Darryl Tahirali of the site's DDT's Pop Flies blog. This looks to be a very important part of our site, and we hope you will enjoy reading this as much as we enjoyed writing it.
Chairman: I know that I keep equating last year’s Maddux/Glavine & Thomas to this year’s Randy/Pedro & Smoltz but it seems so much of a given that two of them are going in (Randy Johnson & Pedro Martinez) and John Smoltz, while great is arguably a level below, and not necessarily a first ballot. I think the biggest comparison has to be Dennis Eckersley who got in on the first ballot, and had successful stints both as a starter and a reliever and they have similar bWARs (Eckersley 62.5 – Smoltz 66.5) but for John to replicate Eck’s 83.2% in his first year is so much harder as the man with the feathered coif did not have this kind of competition.
For the record, I far prefer the career of Smoltz and do feel his a Hall of Fame inductee; I just don’t know whether he would get in right away like Eckersley.
D.K.: I’d have to think that Smoltz is so highly respected by his peers and team beat writers that at worst John Smoltz will be a near-miss for election this year with over 2/3 of the writers casting their ballots for him and he might even get elected in his first year of eligibility.
While his victory total of about 220 wins is not that staggering, Smoltz struck out more than 3,000 batters and helped anchor an Atlanta Braves pitching rotation that was vital towards the team’s drive to a record-setting 14 straight division championships. He also made an unselfish switch to the bullpen for a few seasons where he notched more than 150 Saves.
Outstanding qualifications! The only thing that may prevent his election next month is that some writers hold first year eligible candidates to a higher standard than others.
Darryl: John Smoltz and Dennis Eckersley are the only pitchers in major league history to combine 150 wins and 150 saves, while Smoltz is the only one to combine 200 wins and 150 saves, although Eckersley finished three wins shy of 200 and he was a full-time reliever for 12 seasons to Smoltz's three, and Smoltz's period as a closer coincided with higher save totals in the majors as managers brought in the closer in any save situation. In 2011, I labeled Smoltz a "no-brainer" Hall of Famer who will most likely go in on the first ballot.
Frankly, and even though I called him another "no-brainer," I wasn't sure that Tom Glavine was going to be elected last year on his first try. He was, and maybe it was the vestige of the 300-game winner, which Smoltz does not enjoy, and we'll see whether Smoltz's detour into relief pitching will help or hurt him. But I also suspect that part of Glavine's appeal was that he was a pitcher in the Steroids Era, a clean player, and a part of so many winning Braves' teams. Smoltz has that too, and something else besides—he may benefit from a "complete the set" mentality that wants to put him in with Glavine and Greg Maddux with no delays.
Chairman: So we all see Smoltz as a Hall of Fame entry, and we all think he will get into the Hall immediately. Yet, here I am putting that word in italics. Could he somehow slip to next year? For the longest time I thought that it was possible and I thought of all the reasons why it could happen, so much to the point where I convinced myself they would make him wait a year.
Today I was also thinking about how Smoltz has now become a broadcaster, basically crossing over to media. I am not saying that he is politicking for votes, but he is in a position where he crossed over somewhat to “part of us” mentality that the writers might like. What am I saying here? I am saying that the imaginary fence I had him on, or thought he might be on, I am convinced what side he will fall; and I am totally cool with that, and yes I mean that as a first ballot induction.
D.K: I think it’s going to be close, but Smoltz might come up a little short this year. He won 20 games only once and people tend to generalize that he “unselfishly went to the bullpen for a few years to help his team”. Actually he had an injury that caused him to miss the entire 2000 season. Then when he had recuperated enough he rejoined the team in 2001 and went to the bullpen to build up arm strength to help his team”. He worked out of the pen so well manager Bobby Cox kept him there, because he’s discovered a gem in Smoltz’s work as a Closer. The move became semi-permanent and he didn’t return to starting until 2005. That cost him a significant number of career wins, but it also made him an attractive candidate as a rare pitcher who could excel both out of the rotation and out of the bullpen.
213 wins, 154 Saves and 3,084 Saves mark Smoltz as one of the toughest pitchers to face of his era but he’ll be competing against 303 game winner and #2 all-time in strikeouts in Randy Johnson who also had a higher winning percentage than Smoltz, Pedro Martinez another 3,000 strikeouts pitcher with the second highest winning percentage of any 200 game winner, plus holdover Curt Schilling whose numbers are very similar to Smoltz’s in wins, win percentage and strikeouts. Smoltz will be a Hall of Famer soon, although perhaps not this year.
Darryl: I don't know that the move to broadcasting will be that big of a factor, although as I watch him on MLB Network that does cross my mind occasionally. I think the bigger factor is that he is the third of the Braves' starting-pitcher trio, and with both Maddux and Glavine being voted it last year, it may be a "complete the set" mentality to vote for him this year, as I mentioned previously. Given the ballot logjam, I would not mind seeing him not be voted in this year, but I would hate to see a poor showing. And although I've stated repeatedly that I don't go for the contingency approach that "Player A may be a Hall of Famer, but Player B needs to go in first," it would rankle me if Smoltz gets elected this year while Curt Schilling does not.
Chairman: Easy one for me here. A definite yes.
D.K.: I ranked him at #8. - YES.
Darryl: No. Not this year. I think he is a Hall of Famer, and I think that he will get a lot of support. However, I do not think he is "inner circle" enough to leapfrog over candidates just as deserving as he is who have been on the ballot previously. Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez, yes. John Smoltz, no. Not this year.
The Lee Smith Debate: 2015
Dec 29, 2014
Written by
Committee Chairman
This is the twenteth of our series where we here at Notinhalloffame.com, do what else? Debate the merit of twenty-four men on the most loaded Baseball Hall of Fame ballot in our lifetime.
Joining me, the site's Committee Chairman, in this debate are D.K. of the site's Phillies Archivist blog and Darryl Tahirali of the site's DDT's Pop Flies blog. This looks to be a very important part of our site, and we hope you will enjoy reading this as much as we enjoyed writing it.
Chairman: I don’t know about the two of you, but my biggest turn around over the past ten years has been on Lee Smith, and not for the better. I was all in on respect for closers and I was taken in by the 478 Saves (retiring with the all time Saves record) and four Saves Titles. This is still an accomplishment to celebrate, but when compared to a true dominating closer like Mariano Rivera, he doesn’t come close. Forgetting the Saves, we have Rivera’s 1.000 WHIP to Smith’s 1.242, Rivera’s 205 ERA+ to Smith’s 132, and a bWAR of 56.6 to Smith’s 29.4. I haven’t even talked about how he shit the bed in his two playoff appearances. What was I thinking?
Perhaps the writers are thinking the same as this is Lee Smith’s 13th year and like so many others here, he hit his low last year with a 29.9%, down from 50.6 two years ago. I don’t think it is looking good for Mr. Smith.
D.K.: Lee Smith’s case for the Hall of Fame brings up an interesting topic. Should someone who once led a sport in a statistical category be a Hall Of famer if that record has been surpassed or even obliterated? Smith’s 486 Saves was the record for at least a decade until that total was surpassed by Trevor Hoffman and Mariano Rivera.
Well you could say that before Babe Ruth came to prominence a guy named Gavvy Cravath was the all-time home run leader. No one brings his name up for the Hall of Fame in the Pre integration (1871-1945) category. The same is true for other sports:
In the NFL Philadelphia Eagles 1950s and 1960s receiver/kicker, Bobby Walston was once the NFLs all-time leader in Scoring and Billy Howton another star of the 1950s and early ‘560s was briefly the all-time pass receiving record holder with 503 catches.
Today, however these NFL stars accomplishments have pretty much been forgotten. Smith is likely to receive the same treatment from writers as sportswriters have given Cravath, Walston and Howton in the past.
To add to the gloom of Smith’s case you have to note that he finished his career 21 games below .500 (71-92), had a significant number of blown Saves (103) and led the league as often in Blown Saves as he did in Saves (four times in each category).
Darryl: D.K. brings up a good point about pioneers who have since been surpassed, and Lee Smith I think is the prototype of the "one-inning closer." As such, he falls between two stools: One stool has the "firemen" from the previous eras—Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Goose Gossage, Bruce Sutter—the relievers who stepped in to quell the rally and stayed in to finish the game, and the other stool has the lights-out closers who followed Smith including Dennis Eckersley (although technically Eckersley's career began before Smith's, Eck was a starter until 1987), Trevor Hoffman, Mariano Rivera—and Billy Wagner, who I think has a legitimate Hall case, but that is for another time. Smith may have blown 103 saves, but his .823 save percentage is still better than the four Hall of Fame relievers I just named.
And although the Chairman thinks the newly-instituted 10-year rule for ballot appearances is a conspiracy theory to eliminate the PEDs candidates, I think it is also to slough off clean guys like Smith, who have hung around year after year but who are stalled at a voting plateau and show only negative movement. In other words, in each of more than ten ballot appearances, Lee Smith has simply not been impressive enough to garner the three-fourths needed for election. And there is a very good reason why: Lee Smith was very good but not elite.
Chairman: D.K., I like your analogy about holding an all-time major statistical category for over a year as a huge deal, and one that should be celebrated, but I personally don’t view the Save as a major stat anymore, and I don’t see it anywhere near as important as a Home Run. A Home Run is not ambiguous, a Save can be obtained so many ways, and you frankly have a lousy two thirds of an inning, let in a run and allow three people on base, and still get a Save.
At the end of the day, I just don’t see Lee Smith as an elite guy, just like Darryl states. We have seen some relievers change the game; and Lee just isn’t that guy.
D.K.: If part of the reason that Lee Smith dropped from around 50% of the vote to about30% was because of the competition heating up with three first time eligibleMaddux, Glavine and Thomas reaching the Hall, then things won’t get any easier forhim this year. Something tells me that the writers will definitely put Craig Biggio over the top after his near-miss last year. Then you have Randy Johnson, John Smoltzand Pedro Martinez becoming eligible this year and with those factors plus the 10vote maximum per writer and you can see how lesser candidates like Smith could getsqueezed out.
After the rule change was adopted limiting new candidates to 10 years on the
ballot, Smith will be the last candidate to get a full 15-year run on the ballot, ending in 2017. The extra years probably won’t help him much.
Darryl: Good point, Chairman, and not to put too fine a point on it, but while the game did change during Smith's tenure, to an interventionist bullpen capped by the one-inning closer, it was an institutional change and not as a result of Smith's impact. He was merely an instrument used for that change and not the catalyst for that change.
Chairman: Here is where I like the extra time to think about it. If I had a vote seven years ago, I would have said yes. I would have been wrong, and I vote no.
D.K.: NOPE
Darryl: No.