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The Tim Raines Debate: 2015



This is the seventeenth of our series where we here at Notinhalloffame.com, do what else?  Debate the merit of twenty-four men on the most loaded Baseball Hall of Fame ballot in our lifetime.

Joining me, the site's Committee Chairman, in this debate are D.K. of the site's Phillies Archivist blog and Darryl Tahirali of the site's DDT's Pop Flies blog.  This looks to be a very important part of our site, and we hope you will enjoy reading this as much as we enjoyed writing it.

Chairman:  For the record I have always loved Tim Raines and wanted to throttle anyone who ever called him a poor man’s Rickey Henderson.  Although I grant that Henderson had the more impressive career, Raines had one hell of a run, and was overshadowed by a better base stealer.  “The Rock” enters his eighth nomination and with the reduction from fifteen years to ten years on the ballot has potential to be the biggest victim from the change.  

Raines had 46.1% last year, which is down from finally hitting the 50% mark last year.  Gentlemen, if Raines was on for fifteen years, I would bet my house that he would get inducted but in ten years?  I am keeping my deed to the property. 

Darryl:  You'll have to throttle me, then, because I've been calling Tim Raines the poor man's Rickey Henderson for some time now. On the other hand, I've been calling Kenny Loftonthe poor man's Tim Raines, and he was criminally a one-and-done two years ago.

But here's my Raines story: Years ago, I was in a technical writing certification program, and one report-writing course I took included feasibility reports.  I did mine on a fictitious Hall of Fame "Underdog Committee" that looked at bubble candidates who would be retiring soon.  I picked Raines, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, and—don't laugh—Andres Galarraga (hey, he looked pretty good back then), and had to evaluate them and pick one to recommend.  I went in figuring I'd pick Martinez, but after evaluating them, I picked Raines as the best (most feasible) candidate. Funny how that worked out on the real ballots years later, yes?  But you're right—I was pretty sure after last year that Raines would struggle on the ballot, and that'll be even more so now.  Some Expansion Era Committee is going to have to fight to get him in the Hall.

D.K.:  If you think of the Hall Of Fame as the greatest team of players ever assembled then you’re going to need every component of a great team, including you’re speed guys and table setters. With 808 stolen bases and a career .294 hitter hardly any player has filled the bill for that role better than Raines since the late 1970’s except Rickey Henderson.  Lou Brock, Henderson and Raines posted career totals not seen since the dead ball era days when running was a most critical and necessary part of the game.

His seasons of .320, .334 where he led the National League in ‘86 and .330 is a pretty nice career peak that he reached between 1985 and 1987.  He finished his career with 2,605 hits and better than a hit per game average and he reached 70 stolen bases six consecutive years (1981-1986), taking four NL stolen base titles, and reaching a career high of 90 SB in 1983.

A veteran of 2502 games in 23 years he had tremendous longevity also.  With his vote totals of about 50% the last two elections, he’s been a bit underappreciated so far by the writers. I’ll be very interested to see if Raines vote total makes some progress towards election, come January 6th.

Chairman:  So let’s call him a rich man’s Maury Wills then?  If Maury can get solid Veteran’s support, maybe there is a hope for Raines that way, as I have a strong suspicion he will see a percentage decrease again this year, and he is not going to get in by “traditional means”. 

“The Rock” (and is that because of what he liked smoking the best?) has to consider it a win just to get back to where he was two years ago.  I wonder if the Expos deal hinders him a bit.  I know that his teammates Gary Carter and Andre Dawson got in, but Carter had a couple good years with the Mets and was just one of those guys that people loved.  Dawson had the MVP season with the Cubs, and many people associate “the Hawk” with Chicago more than Montreal.  Raines never had a signature season outside of Montreal.  Am I reaching or am I bordering on another conspiracy theory here?

D.K.:  Although the writers have asked the HOF if they may increase the maximum number of players they can vote for in any election to 12.  As far as I know, if 12 votes is approved per writer it won’t go into effect for the election at hand.  Even with only 10 votes I’ll fit “The Rich Man’s Maury Wills (Tim Raines) in there somewhere.

Darryl:  Gary Carter and Andre Dawson may be good examples, and not just because they were also Expos. It took Carter six tries to be elected, and it took Dawson nine tries--and both did it in years that did not have the embarrassment of riches that Raines is facing now.  Shhh! Everyone is trying to forget that Raines was one of several MLB players implicated in the Pittsburgh drug trials of the mid-1980s.  Supposedly, Raines slid head-first into bases so he would not break the cocaine vial in his back pocket.  But given the obvious punishment being meted out to the PEDs guys, you have to wonder whether some writers have not forgotten about Raines's involvement in this quiet, although significant, drug scandal in baseball.

Chairman:  This breaks my heart because I think he is a Hall of Famer.  He is my 11A candidate, but sadly my vote is no.

Darryl:  This is my last speech. Probably. I've been calling Tim Raines a Hall of Famer since 2002.  Yes, that was in his last year before retirement. I've been calling him that ever since.  But based on his voting history, I don't think that he has a chance on the writers' ballot.  My primary approach in this (hypothetical) vote is, with a few exceptions, to clear the ballot by voting for as many candidates who have a good chance of actually being elected and thus enable voters to more seriously consider candidates such as Raines, who is a SABR darling who does not have that Hall of Fame glow about him. (Spoiler alert: I'll be saying the same thing about Alan Trammell.)

Thus, it pains me to say it, but my vote is no. Not this year.

D.K.:  Maybe it’s because I was small in stature in elementary school but I always appreciated baseball’s smaller, pesky, feisty little guys that batted lead off or #2 to set the table...the Richie Ashburns, Curt Floods, Lou Brocks , Luis Aparicios, Maury Wills, Ron Hunts, Pete Roses, Nellie Foxs and Ricky Hendersons of this world ....and Tim Raines.  I see that I think much more highly of Tim than my colleagues.  I ranked Raines as my #3 candidate and that results in an emphatic YES vote!


Last modified on Thursday, 19 March 2015 18:48
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